# Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168 "2013-09-18T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/621 "2013-09-25T20:42:16Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Compare Morgan’s investigations to the US investigations of Abu Graib. This is a weak distraction. > [@](#): > > Morgan investigated and prosecuted the SS from top to bottom. It was already established that’s not true, which makes this little bit of character testimony- > [@](#): > > Morgen’s career is consistent with an administration that operates by law and prosecutes crime False and irrelevant. Especially given the years of legal persecution of Jews that predated the Holocaust. What else you got? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do you concede, **Gack** , that during WWII the Nazis committed war crimes using various means, including but not limited to death camps, resulting in victim counts numbering in the millions? > > If not, what is your best estimate for the number of victims? He conceded that 300,000 to 400,000 people died in the camps but said nothing about the SS going around and shooting large numbers people, which we know they did. However **Gack** says they all died of diseases like typhus, which we know from the Nazis’ “meticulous” records- even though those records show very few deaths from typhus. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/622 "2013-09-25T21:22:57Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I have better things to do than argue with a Holocaust denier, but for those who are interested in the question of just what the Allies knew about the Holocaust from SIGINT decryption programs like ULTRA and why they didn’t know more, the NSA has an interesting history on the subject [here](http://www.nsa.gov/about/_files/cryptologic_heritage/publications/wwii/eavesdropping.pdf). (.pdf: findings start at about page 121 of the document.) I haven’t read this report, and rather than debate by links let me suggest that you summarize the results as you see them for us. However, it is indisputable that the top levels of the US govt. did not believe the holocaust stories during or near the end of the war. As evidence of this we have the following telegram following communication between the US government and the Nazi government preceding the evacuation of Auschwitz … the US government has asked the German government, through Irish intermediaries, if it planned to execute the prisoners at Auschwitz prior to the evacuation, and the German government had replied, accurately, that the report was pure invention. You can see the telegram Sec. of State E. Stettinius sent in response to this information here … [http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/codoh/graphics/balltlgram2.gif](http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/codoh/graphics/balltlgram2.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/623 "2013-09-25T21:24:03Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > However, it is indisputable that the top levels of the US govt. did not believe the holocaust stories during or near the end of the war. They sure did believe it after the war, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/624 "2013-09-25T21:31:42Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Wikipedia: “The United States Department of Defense removed seventeen soldiers and officers from duty, and eleven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, aggravated assault and battery. Between May 2004 and March 2006, eleven soldiers were convicted in courts-martial, sentenced to military prison, and dishonorably discharged from service.” > ([Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse)) > It’s nice to see that **Gack** is at least consistent in his standards of accuracy, even when talking about non-Nazis. I stand corrected, one colonel was relieved of his duty, a lieutenant colonel charged but not convicted, the nine grunts, sargents, specialists, and privates, including my hillbilly, were convicted in courts-martial and sentenced. In other words, a white wash. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/625 "2013-09-25T21:38:49Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > In other words, a white wash. It’s less of a whitewashing than the one you’re engaged in, though. You were trying to use Morgen as proof the Nazis wouldn’t have committed murder when his job seems to have been punishing soldiers who stole from the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/626 "2013-09-25T21:40:09Z")
All right, I am planning my experiment, so I am welcome to (sincere 🙂 ) suggestions. If I followed the Blobel account as closely as possible I would dig a hole, put the cut up chicken into the hole, ‘cover’ it with gasoline, and set it ablaze. However, obviously this ain’t gonna get it, because most of the gas will soak into the ground and the fire will be out in no time. So, I’m going to bias the thing in Blobel’s favor. I have a 2 qt saucepan in the garage I can use for this, I’m going the pack the cut up chicken as tightly as possible into the bottom of the pan, and pour in gasoline to nearly cover the chicken, and set it ablaze. The fire will burn for a while, I have no idea how long, and it will do some damage to the chicken, I have no idea how much. I’ll weigh the chicken before and after the experiment to determine the % cremated. Science in action. You can make a prediction in the amount cremated. I’ll predict 15%. This is not a first, btw, there are other accounts of the open air cremation process in the holocaust, and others have done similar experiments using grates, wood, etc., following the other accounts. As far as I know no one has experimented with Blobel’s method. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/627 "2013-09-25T21:43:11Z")
There is no way your experiment is going to prove anything to anyone. Best case, you ruin some chicken and don’t hurt yourself. Maybe you could skip the nonsense and come up with some solid rebuttals instead. Or, hoping against hope, you could review some evidence and consider how ridiculous your position is. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/628 "2013-09-25T21:47:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There is no way your experiment is going to prove anything to anyone. Best case, you ruin some chicken and don’t hurt yourself. Maybe you could skip the nonsense and come up with some solid rebuttals instead. Or, hoping against hope, you could review some evidence and consider how ridiculous your position is. I believe the experiment is valid, it is the method that is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/629 "2013-09-25T21:54:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s less of a whitewashing than the one you’re engaged in, though. You were trying to use Morgen as proof the Nazis wouldn’t have committed murder when his job seems to have been punishing soldiers who stole from the Nazis. Well, there is also the small difference between what the soldiers did at AG (note, I’m not saying what they did was anything less than wrong, bad and uncalled for) and the mass murder of millions of innocent men, women and children perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews (as well as Gypsies, gays, Slavs and various other groups the Nazis deemed undesirable). Kind of silly to even attempt to compare the two, but then DeNile is not just in Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/630 "2013-09-25T22:03:15Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, there is also the small difference between what the soldiers did at AG (note, I’m not saying what they did was anything less than wrong, bad and uncalled for) and the mass murder of millions of innocent men, women and children perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews (as well as Gypsies, gays, Slavs and various other groups the Nazis deemed undesirable). Kind of silly to even attempt to compare the two, but then DeNile is not just in Egypt. I never really fell for the attempt to distract from one set of bad behaviors by pointing out someone elses bad behavior. “The Romans killed Jews too! How come everyone gives _them_ a pass?!?” ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/631 "2013-09-25T22:52:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think there’s only been one real question in this thread. The overwhelming mass of evidence shows the Holocaust happened and there’s no rational dispute against that. So Holocaust deniers can be divided up into two groups: those who dug through the mountains of proof to find the handful of items that look like a defense when taken out of context and those who have only heard about those handful of items. Essentially there are the liars and the lied to. > > You can help one of the lied to. You can show them the huge amount of real evidence that their sources never told them about. If these people are honest, this will open their eyes to the truth and they’ll renounce their former position. > > But the liars will stick to their story. They knew all along that what they’re saying wasn’t true so showing them evidence isn’t going to change their minds. They saw all the evidence when they were trying to hide it. > > So the only real question in this thread is which group Gack belonged to and I think it’s become obvious. I was already quite satisfied that the Holocaust happened, and this thread has done nothing but reinforce and inform me in that opinion. Gack’s attempts have completely backfired. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/632 "2013-09-25T22:58:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Maybe you could skip the nonsense and come up with some solid rebuttals instead. We both know that this isn’t actually possible, as does everyone else in this thread. Thus, all you are ever going to get from him is more nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/633 "2013-09-25T22:59:15Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I was already quite satisfied that the Holocaust happened Phrasing 😉 ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/634 "2013-09-25T23:20:06Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I believe the experiment is valid, it is the method that is absurd. Gack, read more about Blobel and its described that he developed a method of disposing of bodies involving alternating layers of corpses and firewood, using rails as grills AND using an accelerant like gasoline as well. The Nuremberg trial statement is brief so it merely describes the bodies as being “covered in flammable material”. The exact mechanics of burning the bodies wasn’t relevant so it wasn’t included in the statement. You’ll notice the previous paragraph in the Nuremberg statement refers to them not having material and having to wait until the correct materials were obtained to burn the bodies. “The order could not be carried out immediately partly because Dr. Thomas was disinclined to carry it out, and also because the materials required for the burning of the bodies was not available.” Every other witness account of open pit cremations includes descriptions of wood and fuel being used. No one is claiming that bodies had gasoline splashed on them and they burnt to nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/635 "2013-09-25T23:54:34Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I haven’t read this report, and rather than debate by links let me suggest that you summarize the results as you see them for us. > > However, it is indisputable that the top levels of the US govt. did not believe the holocaust stories during or near the end of the war. As evidence of this we have the following telegram following communication between the US government and the Nazi government preceding the evacuation of Auschwitz … the US government has asked the German government, through Irish intermediaries, if it planned to execute the prisoners at Auschwitz prior to the evacuation, and the German government had replied, accurately, that the report was pure invention. > > You can see the telegram Sec. of State E. Stettinius sent in response to this information here … > > [http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/codoh/graphics/balltlgram2.gif](http://codoh.com/sites/default/files/codoh/graphics/balltlgram2.gif) That is _not_ evidence that the U.S. government didn’t believe, or at least suspect, that the Holocaust was occurring. It is evidence that the German government denied that it was occurring. Which, just like the perpetrators denying it during their trials, is surprising to no one. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/636 "2013-09-26T00:04:03Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > All right, I am planning my experiment, so I am welcome to (sincere 🙂 ) suggestions. > > If I followed the Blobel account as closely as possible I would dig a hole, put the cut up chicken into the hole, ‘cover’ it with gasoline, and set it ablaze. Chicken? Why not pig? A side of beef? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/637 "2013-09-26T00:16:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > On top of the contempt I have for the liars, I have a great deal of pity. It must be terribly difficult on one’s sense of self to constantly have to lie, especially to one’s self. Deep down, the liars probably realize that the Holocaust really happened, but they must devote an awful lot of brain-space to convince themselves, against all possible logic, that it didn’t. > [@Smeghead](#): > > Again, very reminiscent of creationists I’ve argued with. They know it’s bullshit, but desperately need to believe it anyway. Or else they’re just profoundly ignorant. I don’t see it as the same. Creationists basically just read one book and then ignore everything else. Holocaust deniers put a lot more effort into their lies - and they know very well they’re lying. Gack has given us several examples of bits and pieces that taken out of context would indicate the Holocaust didn’t happen. Holocaust deniers didn’t find those bits and pieces easily. As someone put it earlier, they had to dig deep through mountains of evidence to find a handful of pebbles. They had to read through thousands of pages of records and testimony that proved the genocide occurred in order to find a few scraps. Ironically the people who deny the Holocaust happened are probably the ones who have seen the most proof that it did. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/638 "2013-09-26T00:19:59Z")
Hey, Gack. Question for you: Let’s say that you found convincing evidence tomorrow and it demonstrated that the Holocaust happened just as everyone was already saying. What would that change in your life? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/639 "2013-09-26T01:36:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Hey, Gack. Question for you: > > Let’s say that you found convincing evidence tomorrow and it demonstrated that the Holocaust happened just as everyone was already saying. What would that change in your life? He wouldn’t feel compelled to immolate poultry. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/640 "2013-09-26T01:57:47Z")
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