# Questions about Hitler and Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of Europe's Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168 "2013-09-18T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/121 "2013-09-19T17:53:18Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Well how about testimony from the horses mouth, Rudolph Hoss > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf\_H%C3%B6ss](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss) > > **Gack**? > > **Capt** Testimony is in a class by itself. Hoess portrayed himself, or was portrayed, as the arch fiend of the holocaust, the man who designed and built the gas chambers and oversaw the execution of the Jews at Auschwitz. He testified at Nuremberg as a defense witness ! The story of Hoess’s capture and torture is well documented. In his book, written before he was (doublecrossed and) convicted of war crimes by trial in Poland, read … \*I was treated terribly by the [British] Field Security Police. I was dragged to Heide and, of all places, to the same military barracks from which I had been released eight months before by the British. I do not know what was in the transcript, or what I said, even though I signed it, because they gave me liquor and beat me with a whip. It was too much even for me to bear. The whip was my own. By chance it had found its way into my wife’s luggage. My horse had hardly ever been touched by it, much less the prisoners. Somehow one of the interrogators probably thought that I had constantly used it to whip the prisoners. After a few days I was taken to Minden on the Weser River, which was the main interrogation center in the British zone. There they treated me even more roughly, especially the first British prosecutor, who was a major. The conditions in the jail reflected the attitude of the first prosecutor. Surprisingly, after three weeks I was shaved, my hair was cut, and I was allowed to wash myself. My handcuffs had not been opened since my arrest. The next day, I was taken by car to Nuremberg together with a prisoner of war who had been brought over from London as a witness in Fritsche’s defense. Compared to where I had been before, imprisonment with the IMT [International Military Tribunal] was like staying in a health spa.\* I repeat - he testified at Nuremberg as a defense witness. According to Butz the affidavit he signed was in English. It was translated to German to be read into the record at Nuremberg. Even after all that his ‘confession’ must be taken on its merits. I’ve done that, studied it. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/122 "2013-09-19T17:57:16Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The relevance is that the photos/film shown by Oprah is from Belsen, and the pictures were of prisoners who died of typhus at the end of the war. Really? So the rifles pointing at them were unnecessary because they were already dead? A waste of good ammunition, no? ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/123 "2013-09-19T18:04:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yeah, that’s a [real](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen) [hard](http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/) [thing](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005130) to [find](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/einsatztoc.html). I’ll give you the short form of why I don’t accept Hilberg’s estimate. The two largest mass killings of Jews outside the camps were (I’m pretty sure) the Harvest Festival Massacre, and the Babi Yar Massacre. Approx. 30000 at Babi Yar and more in the Harvest Festival massacre. The locations of both these alleged massacres are precisely known. Yet, there is no physical evidence of the massacres, in particular no mass graves and no hence no excavations. Now, how can that be. Simple, the holocaust narrative holds that following the exposure of the Katyn forrest massacre, where 1000s of Polish leaders were killed and buried in mass graves, and then discovered by the Nazis. The mass graves were excavated by an international team of forensics experts, and the Nazis tried to turn in into propaganda coup, … then the Nazis realized that the tables might be turned and so decided to dig up and cremate all victims of the Einstazgruppen and in particular the victims at the Harvest Festival and Babi Yar. Hence, no bodies. There are some very big problems with this account which lead me to question its veracity. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/124 "2013-09-19T18:11:19Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The point is that the Nazis were committed record keepers… [Bullshit.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp) > [@wiki](#): > > Extermination camp research is difficult because of extensive attempts by the SS and Nazi regime to conceal the existence of the extermination camps. As a result of Sonderaktion **1005, camps were dismantled, records destroyed, and mass graves were dug up.** Furthermore, extermination camps that remained uncleared were liberated by Soviet troops, who had different standards of documentation and openness than the Western allies. The existence of the extermination camps is firmly established by testimonies of camp survivors and Final Solution perpetrators, material evidence (the remaining camps, etc.), Nazi photographs and films of the killings, and camp administration records. > [@Gack](#): > > …and the Red Cross has data from all the camps, which the public is \*still \*not allowed to see. Please provide a cite for this “fact”. One that isn’t David Irving’s or Stormfront’s or some other similarly anti-semitic pile of garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/125 "2013-09-19T18:18:57Z")
Yeah those guys were so nice they even gave out free tattoos [https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=949&q=auschwitz+tattoo&oq=auschwitz+tattoo&gs\_l=img.3…0l3j0i24l4.6446.15927.0.20152.16.8.0.8.8.0.166.1107.0j8.8.0…0…1ac.1.26.img…0.16.1158.qKEaFAGpC90](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=949&q=auschwitz+tattoo&oq=auschwitz+tattoo&gs_l=img.3..0l3j0i24l4.6446.15927.0.20152.16.8.0.8.8.0.166.1107.0j8.8.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..0.16.1158.qKEaFAGpC90) I am done with this **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/126 "2013-09-19T18:20:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > One that isn’t David Irving’s or Stormfront’s or some other similarly anti-semitic pile of garbage. See the link in my first post to the US Today report on the opening of the Bad Arolsen archives, where the Nazi camp data has been keep from the public for 60 years. It is now open to approved persons, but no one who questions the official narrative can see them because they would be arrested the moment they stepped foot in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/127 "2013-09-19T18:28:53Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > See the link in my first post to the US Today report on the opening of the Bad Arolsen archives, where the Nazi camp data has been keep from the public for 60 years. It is now open to approved persons, but no one who questions the official narrative can see them because they would be arrested the moment they stepped foot in Germany. Do you honestly think anything in those documents is going to say ‘hah! Hah! We fooled you nobody was killed!’? I don’t cry for the neo-Nazis not being allowed to get to the documents. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/128 "2013-09-19T18:29:15Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > I’ll give you the short form of why I don’t accept Hilberg’s estimate. The two largest mass killings of Jews outside the camps were (I’m pretty sure) the Harvest Festival Massacre, and the Babi Yar Massacre. Approx. 30000 at Babi Yar and more in the Harvest Festival massacre. The locations of both these alleged massacres are precisely known. Yet, there is no physical evidence of the massacres, in particular no mass graves and no hence no excavations. > > Now, how can that be. Simple, the holocaust narrative holds that following the exposure of the Katyn forrest massacre, where 1000s of Polish leaders were killed and buried in mass graves, and then discovered by the Nazis. The mass graves were excavated by an international team of forensics experts, and the Nazis tried to turn in into propaganda coup, … then the Nazis realized that the tables might be turned and so decided to dig up and cremate all victims of the Einstazgruppen and in particular the victims at the Harvest Festival and Babi Yar. Hence, no bodies. **There are some very big problems with this account which lead me to question its veracity.** At least 6 members of my family (siblings of grandparents on both sides and my grandfather) were killed in Babi Yar. I have it on good authority that they existed prior to the Nazi occupation. My surviving relatives are my cite. As are old family photos taken prior to the war. I am familiar with their provenance. You can question veracity all you want but we all know you’re[talking shit](http://history1900s.about.com/od/holocaust/a/babiyar_2.htm). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/129 "2013-09-19T18:33:58Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > See the link in my first post to the US Today report on the opening of the Bad Arolsen archives, where the Nazi camp data has been keep from the public for 60 years. It is now open to approved persons, but no one who questions the official narrative can see them because they would be arrested the moment they stepped foot in Germany. So it’s a conspiracy! Who do you think is at the heart of this conspiracy, pray tell? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/130 "2013-09-19T18:46:52Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > See the link in my first post to the US Today report on the opening of the Bad Arolsen archives, where the Nazi camp data has been keep from the public for 60 years. It is now open to approved persons, but no one who questions the official narrative can see them because they would be arrested the moment they stepped foot in Germany. Why would \*\*\*you \*\*\*be arrested for going to Germany? Do you think they have you on a list for “questioning the narrative” ? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/131 "2013-09-19T18:51:15Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > See the link in my first post to the US Today report on the opening of the **Bad Arolsen archives** , where the Nazi camp data has been keep from the public for 60 years. It is now open to approved persons, but no one who questions the official narrative can see them because they would be arrested the moment they stepped foot in Germany. [Open to the public](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-30-2732073950_x.htm) since 2008. Do you carry a placard denying the holocaust everywhere you go? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/132 "2013-09-19T19:12:20Z")
He may be referring to the fact that Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/133 "2013-09-19T19:25:18Z")
So if I’m following Gack’s claims correctly, he’s saying that the total number of people killed in the Holocaust, Jews and non-Jews, was between 300,000 and 400,000. As I noted in a previous post, approximately twelve million people who were alive in 1933 were not alive in 1945. They didn’t join any military and fight in the war. They didn’t show up someplace else. My question then is where did all those people go? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/134 "2013-09-19T19:29:34Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The mass graves were excavated by an international team of forensics experts, and the Nazis tried to turn in into propaganda coup, … then the Nazis realized that the tables might be turned and so decided to dig up and cremate all victims of the Einstazgruppen and in particular the victims at the Harvest Festival and Babi Yar. Hence, no bodies. There are some very big problems with this account which lead me to question its veracity. What exactly are the big problems with this account? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/135 "2013-09-19T20:07:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if I’m following Gack’s claims correctly, he’s saying that the total number of people killed in the Holocaust, Jews and non-Jews, was between 300,000 and 400,000. And you know, I’m pretty sure that’s sufficiently evil. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/136 "2013-09-19T20:08:39Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Yet, there is no physical evidence of the massacres, in particular no mass graves and no hence no excavations. There is plenty of physical evidence of the mass shootings by the Einsatzgruppen. Here, from [Commander SS-Standartenführer Karl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen#J.C3.A4ger_Report)Jäger’s own mouth: > [@](#): > > The Einsatzgruppen kept official records of many of their massacres and provided detailed reports to their superiors. The Jäger Report, filed by Commander SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger on 1 December 1941 to his superior, Stahlecker (head of Einsatzgruppe A), covers the activities of Einsatzkommando III in Lithuania over the five-month period from 2 July 1941 to 25 November 1941.[116] > > Jäger’s report provides an almost daily running total of the liquidations of 137,346 people, the vast majority of them Jews.[116] The report documents the exact date and place of massacres, the number of victims, and their breakdown into categories (Jews, Communists, criminals, and so on).[117] Women were shot from the very beginning, but initially in fewer numbers than men.[118] Children were first included in the tally starting in mid-August, when 3,207 people were murdered in Rokiškis on 15–16 August 1941.[117] For the most part the report does not give any military justification for the killings; people were killed solely because they were Jews.[117] In total, the report lists over 100 executions in 71 different locations. Jäger wrote: “I can state today that the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania has been reached by Einsatzkommando 3. There are no more Jews in Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.”[116] In a February 1942 addendum to the report, Jäger increased the total number of victims to 138,272, giving a breakdown of 48,252 men, 55,556 women, and 34,464 children. Only 1,851 of the victims were non-Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/137 "2013-09-19T20:24:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In short, there are mountains of documents demonstrating that it was the Nazis goal (ordered by Hitler) and policy to exterminate Europe’s Jews (including the reports of Himmler, Eichmann, and Hoss), there are thousands of eyewitnesses, including Nazi officials, camp guards, camp inmates, civilians, and allied soldiers that report on the Nazis efforts to exterminate Europe’s Jews, and warehouses full of material evidence in the form of human remains, mass graves, and the equipment and machines used for mass murder. On the other hand a bunch of guys on the internets say it didn’t happen. So the jury’s still out. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/138 "2013-09-19T20:28:11Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > He may be referring to the fact that Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany. I suppose I should have gone on to explain that unless he had a sign on him, how would anybody know his position on the subject. I realize Germans are ruthlessly efficient to this day, but even they don’t read minds. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/139 "2013-09-19T20:31:59Z")
Perhaps unneeded but obvious response: Deniers feel a need to be persecuted to feel vindicated as martyrs to the cause, therefore they will see(k) persecution wherever they can. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168/140 "2013-09-19T20:34:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What exactly are the big problems with this account? First there is no physical evidence. Take the case of Babi Yar. According to eyewitness accounts 30,000 (to 300,000) persons were shot and buried. So, if the bodies were dug up and cremated, as per the narrative, there would still be considerable physical evidence, 30,000 bullets for example, ashes, bones, etc. Second, there is the confession on the man responsible, Paul Blobel. You can see it here … [http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/blobel1.html](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/blobel1.html) I’ll quote the relevant passage … \*3. During my visit in August I myself observed the burning of bodies in a mass grave near Kiev. This grave was about 55 m. long, 3 m. wide and 2½ m. deep. After the top had been removed the bodies were covered with inflammable material and ignited. It took about two days until the grave burned down to the bottom. I myself observed that the fire had glowed down to the bottom. After that the grave was filled in and the traces were now practically obliterated. \* Bodies cannot be cremated as described. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-hitler-and-nazi-germanys-attempted-extermination-of-europes-jews/669168.md?page=8)