# Questions about Lent **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 4, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211 "2006-04-04T06:18:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/1 "2006-04-04T06:18:34Z")
When does lent officially end? I’ve seen answers ranging from Easter Sunday, to the Friday or Saturday before, or even the Friday before Palm Sunday. In particular, if you give up something for Lent, when can you start it back up? 🙂 For that matter, is giving up something for Lent (as opposed to meatless Fridays and/or general fasting) part of the Catholic tradition, or is it more modern? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/2 "2006-04-04T06:37:02Z")
For most of the pre-modern time, giving up meat for Lent was more neccessity than a chosen penance. Except for the rich, meat was simply not readily available during this period of the year. Meat from animals slaughtered the previous fall would be running out about then. And going from wointer into spring meant that (pre-refrigeration) storing meat became more difficult. So they tended to use up the meat that was left in a big festival (Mardi Gras). The main preservation methods for meat after winter was over was via smoking or pickling, both of which were somewhat expensive. And keeping live animals to slaughter as needed was also too expensive to be practical for most people. The forage needed by these animals was not generally available. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/3 "2006-04-04T07:06:58Z")
Traditionally in the Western Church, Lent extended from Ash Wednesday through Holy Saturday, with the fasting laws suspended on Sundays. (Six weeks - six Sundays = 36 days + Ash Wednesay + Thursday + Friday + Saturday of that week = 40 days.) During the reorganization of the liturgical calendar during the preparation of the revised Roman Missal of 1970, the three days of Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday were spun off into a miniature liturgical season known as the Triduum (Three days), so now Lent “officially” ends at Wednesday of Holy Week. Warnings, exclusions, exceptions: - The Triduum was a very old term for the three days it names, the only change was to make it a separate liturgical season. - I have no idea what the actual practice of the Orthodox may be. - Traditions among various Protestant or Reform churches may differ from Catholic practice–either prior to or subsequent to the changes emanating from Vatican II. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/4 "2006-04-04T07:15:08Z")
The 1910 [Catholic Encyclopredia: Lent](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm.) article describes its development pretty well in terms of fasting. I do not know when the specific practice of “giving something up for Lent” began, but I have always felt that it “feels” like a rather recent (20th century, 19th century at the earliest) practice. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/5 "2006-04-04T15:20:31Z")
It’s good information, but what I really need to know is when something given up for Lent can be restarted. A woman of my acquaintence has given up chocolate and the sooner she can go back to it, the better life will be for a number of people who know her. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/6 "2006-04-04T15:31:26Z")
Traditionally, that would have been Holy Saturday after the Easter Vigil had completed. If you are desperate to fudge the time, under the new rubrics, you can declare Holy Thursday “no longer Lent.” (You could also rely on the older tradition that each Sunday is a Lenten “skip” day and have her take calming fixes one day each week.) ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/7 "2006-04-04T16:15:49Z")
Desperate to fudge the time, huh? Good one … and literally true. So Saturday after the Easter vigil. When is that? Morning, noon, night? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/8 "2006-04-04T16:38:14Z")
Orthodox practice: Lent begins on Monday in the 7th week before Easter. All days of the week are counted to make up the 40 days, so there are six weeks of Lent, though fasting is relaxed on Saturdays and Sundays. The last day of Lent is the Friday before Palm Sunday. The Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday are considered holidays not falling within any fasting period. Holy Week is considered a separate liturgical season, and begins the Monday after Palm Sunday. Before Lent begins, there’s a gradual introduction to it, in the form of a week of no fasting, a week of normal (Wednesday and Friday) fasting, and a week of abstaining from meat only. On days of strict fasting (Lenten weekdays), meat, dairy, eggs, fish, wine, and olive oil are forbidden, and theoretically the amount of food to be eaten should be restricted as well. On days of relaxed fasting (weekends), wine and olive oil are allowed. On Annunciation and Palm Sunday, fish is allowed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/9 "2006-04-04T16:42:38Z")
Lent begins with Ash Wednesday. The alternate name for Mardi Gras, Carneval, literally means “good bye to meat – carne vale.” It lasts for a period of 46 days, with Sundays excluded from the Lenten fast since they’re minor feasts of the Resurrection in themselves. It ends traditionally with the lighting of the Paschal Candle (a large candle symbolizing the light of Christ) and the singing of Alleluia (for the first time since Mardi Gras) during the Easter Vigil. That, by the way, is a service with traditions going back to the early church, resurrected by numerous denominations during the last few decades. It’s properly conducted sometime between dusk on Saturday night and dawn on Easter morning. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/10 "2006-04-04T17:13:32Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > It’s good information, but what I really need to know is when something given up for Lent can be restarted. A woman of my acquaintence has given up chocolate and the sooner she can go back to it, the better life will be for a number of people who know her. It’ll end just in time for you to get to deal with your Jewish acquaintances being cross because we have to eat matzo for a week… ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/11 "2006-04-04T18:38:45Z")
> [@Greg Charles](#): > > Desperate to fudge the time, huh? Good one … and literally true. So Saturday after the Easter vigil. When is that? Morning, noon, night? Depends. Here it’s at 4 PM and at 7 PM. Sometimes it’s later at night. Surely she is attending or at least knows when it is if she is observant of fasting?? Vigil is happy happy joy joy but I usually save the treats and end of Lenten sacrifices for Easter Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/12 "2006-04-04T20:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > During the reorganization of the liturgical calendar during the preparation of the revised Roman Missal of 1970, the three days of Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday were spun off into a miniature liturgical season known as the Triduum (Three days), so now Lent “officially” ends at Wednesday of Holy Week. I never thought I’d be questioning **tomndebb** on a matter of Catholicism, but are you sure about that? I had always understood the Triduum to be Friday, Saturday, and Easter Sunday itself, the three days of Jesus’ death, and that Holy Thursday is still technically Lent. Also note that even if it’s not technically Lent, the same fasting rules and then some still apply to Good Friday. Saturday, though, you might be OK. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/13 "2006-04-04T22:41:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I never thought I’d be questioning **tomndebb** on a matter of Catholicism, but are you sure about that? I had always understood the Triduum to be Friday, Saturday, and Easter Sunday itself, the three days of Jesus’ death, and that Holy Thursday is still technically Lent. The Triduum is definitely Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and the Easter Vigil (Holy Saturday). ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/14 "2006-04-04T23:59:13Z")
to get a bit more technical. in the orthodox church, days run sundown to sundown or vespers to vespers (6ish to 6ish for places with odd sun ie alaska). lent begins after vespers of forgivness sunday (monday matins) and ends after vesper for lazurus saturday (saturday matins). great and holy week starts after vespers palm sunday (monday matins) and continues to the epistol reading of the very interesting great and holy saturday services. the timing of the great and holy saturday service is to coincide with the midnight services of jerusalem. some churches do, some don’t. depends on the bishop of the area and the priest of the parrish. after the epistol reading the covers of the church and robes of the priest and alter servers are changed to white. you get to have wine and figs until the midnight compline, matins, hours, and liturgy of pashca. during matins !christ is risen! is declared and technically the fasting is over. most people will wait until after the services are over and baskets are blessed before tucking into the feast. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/15 "2006-04-05T04:50:37Z")
Age 12? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/16 "2006-04-05T06:15:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Also note that even if it’s not technically Lent, the same fasting rules and then some still apply to Good Friday. Saturday, though, you might be OK. The same fasting rules apply (among Catholics) but the tradition of “giving something up for Lent” might be more malleable for some people. (I still hold for waiting until after the Easter Vigil (7:00 - 9:30, Saturday at my church), but **Greg Charles** sounded pretty desperate.) Prior to the reform of the Roman Missal, triduum was used to indicate any three-day liturgical celebration. Ember days and Rogation days (for we ancients who might recall them) were identified with the word triduum. After 1970, the word, capitalized, began showing up as a specific reference to the Thursday through Saturday _between_ Lent and Easter. (Recall that there is only the single Eucharist celebrated in that period–on Thursday. On Friday and Saturday (prior to the Vigil), we do not celebrate mass. It is considered a single three-day extended worship period.) ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/17 "2006-04-05T07:12:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Prior to the reform of the Roman Missal, triduum was used to indicate any three-day liturgical celebration. Ember days and Rogation days (for we ancients who might recall them) were identified with the word triduum. After 1970, the word, capitalized, began showing up as a specific reference to the Thursday through Saturday _between_ Lent and Easter. The specific capitalised usage wasn’t solely a post-1970 phenomenon. As well as the generic (uncapitalised) usage, Triduum (capitalised) was also used pre-Vatican II to designate the three days prior to Easter. The code of rubrics promulgated as a result of \*Rubricarum Instructum \* gives (at paragraph 75): > [@](#): > > Hebdomada a dominica II Passionis seu in palmis usque ad Sabbatum sanctum inclusive dicitur Hebdomada sancta; tres autem ultimi dies eiusdem hebdomadæ Tridui sacri designantur. > [@](#): > > The week from 2nd Sunday of Passiontide (or Palm Sunday) to Holy Saturday inclusive is called Holy Week; and the last three days of that week are known as the sacred Triduum. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/18 "2006-04-05T18:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > the timing of the great and holy saturday service is to coincide with the midnight services of jerusalem. some churches do, some don’t. depends on the bishop of the area and the priest of the parrish. Not quite. The Byzantine Rite follows an ancient practice of shifting all services in Holy Week forward, e.g. the morning service for Tuesday is performed on Monday night, and the Tuesday evening service is performed on Tuesday morning. (The Latin rite did the same thing until the Holy Week reforms of the 1950s.) This means that the vesperal liturgy for Holy Saturday (vespers with a divine liturgy attached) is performed around 9am in the morning. In the Russian tradition, it’s also one of the longest services, having 15 readings from the Old Testament, along with two full sung canticles. In ancient times, it would have been performed around 4 in the afternoon (which is what the service books actually say to do); since days start on the evening before, it’s technically the start of Pascha, which is why the vestments are changed to white. Originally, right after it was completed, in the early evening, the faithful would break for a light meal of wine, bread, and figs, and then reconvene while the entire Book of Acts was read, followed by the Paschal midnight office, matins, hours, and liturgy. Nowadays it’s moved to the morning, as 12 straight hours of services is a bit too much for us wimpy modern folks. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/19 "2006-04-05T19:10:43Z")
All this information on Lent is quite interesting - I’m a sucker for the liturgical calendar. But I think for the OP, **tomendeb** and **Polycarp** have hit on the easiest and most often overlooked solution - remind her that Sundays don’t count. They are feast days in remembrance of the Lord’s resurrection, and she can each as much fudge as she wants on those days.\* \*Subject to the usual warnings re: gluttony, of couse. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211/20 "2006-04-05T19:14:00Z")
I wanted to mention, I attended my first Easter Vigil service last year (Anglican) at which our baby son was baptised (along with others). I think it was at 7 pm. Our new rector threatened us with a tradition that the vigil historically continues until sunrise; but I think we left around 9:00. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-lent/351211.md?page=2)