# Questions about the British Navy during the Napoleonic Wars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 14, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892 "2013-03-14T04:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/21 "2013-03-14T17:18:56Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > After the British captured Jamaica in the mid 1600s they switched from beer to rum. The diluted mixture of rum and water was called grog. The mixture of foul water and heavily diluted rum didn’t taste all that good, so they started mixing lemon juice or lime juice into it to make it a bit less nasty. They didn’t understand it at the time, but the vitamin C in the juice had the effect of preventing scurvy. Even though they didn’t quite understand the why of it, they realized that their sailors were healthier than other sailors because of it and kept doing it. Sailors from other countries would call them Limeys, which is how that slang term came into being. Actually, consumption of citrus fruit to ward off scurvy was well known among British seamen and physicians [well before the mid-1600s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy#Prevention). It wasn’t a mystery why it worked, either; Woodall advocated the consumption of ascorbic acid itself. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/22 "2013-03-14T17:33:37Z")
Well, don’t just sit there - get started on the Aubrey/Maturin series! According to Patrick O’Brian, who appears to have done his homework on the Royal Navy, there was in fact a change in the promotion system just around the Napoleonic Wars - midshipmen still had to sit for the lieutenant exam, but they also had to - unofficially - “pass for a gentleman”. Even before then, connections did of course count - naval officers would help each other’s sons out, for instance - but the unspoken expectation of being of proper family wasn’t as pronounced. As for the chances of a particularly adept lower-class boy, he would have to find a way to pick up some education - literacy would of course be needed, but fairly complex math skills as well. For those entering the navy without the benefit of formal education, promotion to warrant officer - the highly skilled specialists like carpenter, gunner, boatswain - would probably be more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/23 "2013-03-14T17:38:28Z")
Being promoted from a seaman to an officer was sufficiently common that there was a phrase for it, “come in through the hawsehole.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/24 "2013-03-14T19:03:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Being promoted from a seaman to an officer was sufficiently common that there was a phrase for it, “come in through the hawsehole.” I’ve heard it as, “Come UP through the hawsehole.” ETA; Wiki supports **Quartz** , however. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/25 "2013-03-14T19:14:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Later in in his career, being married to the Duke of Wellington’s sister didn’t hurt his advancement. 🙂 For the fictional Hornblower maybe, but in the Royal Navy, once you were on the Navy List ( i.e. made Post\_Captain) you only moved up by the death or retirement of the admirals above you. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/26 "2013-03-14T19:40:32Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > For the fictional Hornblower maybe, but in the Royal Navy, once you were on the Navy List ( i.e. made Post\_Captain) you only moved up by the death or retirement of the admirals above you. I meant in being given ships. True, all you had to do was stay alive long enough to be an Admiral, even a Yellow one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/27 "2013-03-14T19:41:03Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > For the fictional Hornblower maybe, but in the Royal Navy, once you were on the Navy List ( i.e. made Post\_Captain) you only moved up by the death or retirement of the admirals above you. That’s true, but if O’Brian is to be believed, connections helped with getting the kind of command you wanted–seagoing for a fighting officer, with the chance for prize money; a dockyard for one less interested in action (or more interested in graft). I’m not an expert on RN promotion practices in the time of Napoleon, aside from reading O’Brian and Forester (which are fiction, though seemingly well researched) and a little bit of reading I did in addition to the novels. However, by 1812 Britain had been at war with France going on 25 years, with ongoing casualties, and fielded (“sea’d”?) an enormous navy. Common sense indicates that standards for officers would become less selective, not more. As a suggestive example, US Army recruiting standards were relaxed during the height of the Iraq War. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/28 "2013-03-14T20:01:10Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. What social classes did officers belong to? Horatio was not aristocracy, just the son of a doctor, but he was an officer. Was it at all possible to become an officer even if you were lower-class? I know there was an examination to become a lieutenant, but if you were a particularly adept lower-class young man, could you take an exam and become a midshipman? Typically officers were drawn from the middle classes and above, with the more socially advanced ones having an advantage when it came to promotion. Enlisted men were occasionally rated master’s mates, and from there, made midshipmen and lieutenants. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. How frequently did young boys join crews? What were their jobs? What was the minimum age to join? Around 10-12; not sure what the minimum age for being a powder monkey was, but midshipmen typically started at 12 or so. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. Did any bathing at all happen on these ships? Probably… it’s not something discussed too often- Hornblower and Aubrey did it often, but they’re fictional characters. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. How did they store enough fresh water? Casks in the hold. Fresh water was for cooking and drinking, and that was about it. Everything else, including bathing, was done with seawater. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. Was there ever any significant unrest at the fact that class determined whether you were an officer or a seamen, and that the seamen were treated so poorly by officers and had the worst jobs? Sure- there were many mutinies in the Napoleonic era- the Spithead and Nore ones being the most famous in the very late (1797) 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/29 "2013-03-14T20:15:53Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > That’s true, but if O’Brian is to be believed, connections helped with getting the kind of command you wanted–seagoing for a fighting officer, with the chance for prize money; a dockyard for one less interested in action (or more interested in graft). > > I’m not an expert on RN promotion practices in the time of Napoleon, aside from reading O’Brian and Forester (which are fiction, though seemingly well researched) and a little bit of reading I did in addition to the novels. However, by 1812 Britain had been at war with France going on 25 years, with ongoing casualties, and fielded (“sea’d”?) an enormous navy. Common sense indicates that standards for officers would become less selective, not more. As a suggestive example, US Army recruiting standards were relaxed during the height of the Iraq War. On the other hand, in wartime, RN Captains (and Admirals) could potentially make some decent prize money and/or glory, neither of which were particularly available to peacetime sea officers. At any rate, we have some apparently well-researched statements that promotion standards were stricter by the early 19th century than they had been, so we don’t have to speculate. On the other hand, I understand that the standards for sailors did loosen up during the wars as the navy started scraping the bottom of the barrel. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/30 "2013-03-14T21:16:48Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > At any rate, we have some apparently well-researched statements that promotion standards were stricter by the early 19th century than they had been, so we don’t have to speculate. What statements? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/31 "2013-03-14T21:19:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Sure- there were many mutinies in the Napoleonic era- the Spithead and Nore ones being the most famous in the very late (1797) 18th century. But not social mutinies: they weren’t threatening the aristos or their command system, although the Nore edged towards this and then scuttled back; it wasn’t a Kronstadt teaching moment. > [@Meurglys](#): > > And, while Captain Cook’s father was a farm labourer initially, by the time Cook was a teenager his father had been appointed farm manager, so he was fairly well brought up, if not well-to-do. Well, even civilians can get promoted. One useful source is Bernard Ireland’s [Naval Warfare in the age of Sail](http://www.amazon.com/Naval-Warfare-Sail-Bernard-Ireland/dp/0393049833) Online: here’s a guide to ranks [The Dear Surprise](http://www.thedearsurprise.com/?p=2002) Personally I don’t get any interest in this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/32 "2013-03-14T21:40:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > …Casks in the hold. Fresh water was for cooking and drinking, and that was about it. Everything else, including bathing, was done with seawater.. Not being silly here, but did not sea-going vessels take fish from the sea for food? That can certainly be cooked in seawater. And how precious _was_ fuel on-board? Cooking, metalwork. Can’t think of more at the moment… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/33 "2013-03-14T22:08:26Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > And how precious _was_ fuel on-board? Cooking, metalwork. Can’t think of more at the moment… I’ve wondered about that, particularly in the antarctic. I presume the galley oven was the source of heat, perhaps stoves in the Captain’s quarters and wardroom. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/34 "2013-03-14T23:15:40Z")
[http://www.rmg.co.uk/explore/sea-and-ships/facts/navies-and-warships/the-stuart-navy](http://www.rmg.co.uk/explore/sea-and-ships/facts/navies-and-warships/the-stuart-navy) In the 1660’s, Samuel Pepys introduced the first exams for naval Lieutentants. This was an attempt to set standards, which no doubt contributed to the excellent navy over the next 2 centuries. So a naval officer had to demonstrate some smarts and learning… a step up from purchased commissions. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/35 "2013-03-15T00:32:13Z")
Has there ever been an H.M.S. Pepys? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/36 "2013-03-15T00:52:50Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > (I am compelled to [cite](http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj/ulysses/condom.html) one alternative sense of the passage, that (with other hints in the novel) that “colour” and “cornetcy” maybe remnants of rhyming slang, with alliteration (?), for the word “condom.” Welcome to Joyceland, the happy hunting ground.) Apparently the author of that page has no idea how rhyming slang works. (I bet Joyce knew, though, and would not have made such a mistake.) Words in rhyming slang do not rhyme with, and normally bear no resemblance to, the word they encode (and rhyming slang was originally a sort of code talk rather than slang in the usual sense). Example: Word to encode: “wife” Think of a brief mnemonic phrase that rhymes with this word: “Trouble and strife”. Then, whenever you mean to say “wife”, instead use teh other main word of teh mnemonic phrase, in this case, “trouble”. Thus, the rhyming slang for “wife” is “trouble”. Note that this word in no way resembles the word “wife”. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/37 "2013-03-15T01:21:28Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I’m not an expert on RN promotion practices in the time of Napoleon, aside from reading O’Brian and Forester (which are fiction, though seemingly well researched) and a little bit of reading I did in addition to the novels. However, by 1812 Britain had been at war with France going on 25 years, with ongoing casualties, and fielded (“sea’d”?) an enormous navy. Common sense indicates that standards for officers would become less selective, not more. As a suggestive example, US Army recruiting standards were relaxed during the height of the Iraq War. Even in 1814, there were only like 130 rated ships and maybe twice that number of unrated ships in the RN. So you only need to find four hundred or so qualified captains even at the end of the war. So while technically they might have to be a little less choosy, there were always going to be far more people wanting to be Captains and Admirals then there were ships for them to command. IIRC, this issue is explored in both O’Brian and Forrester. Characters in both are constantly worried about how many more officers there are then ships that need them. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/38 "2013-03-15T01:47:28Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Not being silly here, but did not sea-going vessels take fish from the sea for food? That can certainly be cooked in seawater. > > And how precious _was_ fuel on-board? Cooking, metalwork. Can’t think of more at the moment… Aren’t oceans actually pretty barren of fish once you get a reasonable distance from land? they tend to congregate near land as plant life is helped by run off from land and rivers. At least that is what i have read about Magellan’s voyage across the Pacific and the survivors of the whaler Essex that had to resort to cannibalism ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/39 "2013-03-15T02:07:06Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Characters in both are constantly worried about how many more officers there are then ships that need them. Isn’t that because of the numbers of officers sent ashore on half pay because of the “Spanish Peace”? The Napoleonic wars were thought to be over, and removing many ships and officers was a way for the strapped British government to save money. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/40 "2013-03-15T02:07:21Z")
As they say… > [@](#): > > _The ocean is a desert with its life underground, > and the perfect disguise above…_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892.md?page=3)