# Questions about the British Navy during the Napoleonic Wars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 14, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892 "2013-03-14T04:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/41 "2013-03-15T02:14:23Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Even in 1814, there were only like 130 rated ships and maybe twice that number of unrated ships in the RN. So you only need to find four hundred or so qualified captains even at the end of the war. So while technically they might have to be a little less choosy, there were always going to be far more people wanting to be Captains and Admirals then there were ships for them to command. > IIRC, this issue is explored in both O’Brian and Forrester. Characters in both are constantly worried about how many more officers there are then ships that need them. That makes sense when you put it in numerical form. I was discounting the anxiety about promotion experienced in the books–it wouldn’t be all that dramatic if promotion was easy, would it?–but when you put it that way it makes sense. There were SOME admirals and captains without commands, though, right? In other words, there was at least a small surplus of command officers? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/42 "2013-03-15T02:14:28Z")
You also have the issues that: warships make lousy fishing boats sailors aren’t fishermen it takes a lot of people to run a ship these people can’t fish and sail at the same time there is no place to store adequate fishing gear on a man-o-war the aforementioned “desert” conditions of the ocean ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/43 "2013-03-15T02:20:49Z")
I recall Jack Aubrey commenting on a captured shark. “You ain’t going to eat him? Not with part of Mr. Smith still inside him?” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/44 "2013-03-15T02:25:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Has there ever been an H.M.S. Pepys? Apparently there was a shore base named after Pepys in 1945, but as far as I can tell there hasn’t been an actual ship named that. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/45 "2013-03-15T13:06:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Online: here’s a guide to ranks > > [The Dear Surprise](http://www.thedearsurprise.com/?p=2002) That’s a great summary. In addition, there were divisions among sailors. For example, new untrained conscripts were differentiated from trained “able seamen”, and paid accordingly. There’s a huge step between “Captain and Commander” and “Post Captain”, as explained in the first book of O’Brien’s series, appropriately titled “Captain and Commander”. The “Captain and Commander” got a promotion to Captain but hasn’t received his first commission, and isn’t in the queue for promotion. He’s on half-pay until he gets his first ship, which might never happen. Once he’s had his first commission, he becomes Post Captain and is in the queue to be promoted to Admiral if he lives long enough. He’s still not guaranteed future commisions, but at least he gets his first ship and a chance to show his qualities and to get prize money. Another item not listed (somewhat appropriately) is commodore, which is the captain who is head of a fleet (but who is not an admiral). He gets a pennant (a narrow one, rather than the broad pennant of an admiral). This isn’t a rank per-se; it’s a temporary distinction that only lasts as long as the commission (as long as the captain is leader of a fleet). My sources are the fictional series by Forester and O’Brien. 😉 Both are a great read. In particular, I like the fact that they use naval terminology without stopping to define it. At first it’s confusing, but eventually we learn what terms like “wear ship” and “hull up” mean. > [@TSBG](#): > > There were SOME admirals and captains without commands, though, right? In other words, there was at least a small surplus of command officers? Yes, quite a surplus. The heroes of both series spend some time beached on half pay, and quite a bit more time worrying about the possibility, especially earlier in their careers, before they’ve distinguished themselves and been awarded commissions on ships of the line. In particular, Aubrey worries about the possibility of peace, as that would prettty much kill his prospects as a rising captain. Luckily for him, there is no shortage of naval wars for Britain. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/46 "2013-03-15T13:21:26Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > There’s a huge step between “Captain and Commander” and “Post Captain”, as explained in the first book of O’Brien’s series, appropriately titled “Captain and Commander”. Minor nitpick: The first book, and the actual rank was “Master and Commander” which is a sort of intermediate step between Lieutenant and Captain. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/47 "2013-03-15T13:34:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I recall Jack Aubrey commenting on a captured shark. > > “You ain’t going to eat him? Not with part of Mr. Smith still inside him?” > 🙂 That was Mr. Hairabedian, the Turkish Dragoman. > [@Learjeff](#): > > That’s a great summary. > > In addition, there were divisions among sailors. For example, new untrained conscripts were differentiated from trained “able seamen”, and paid accordingly. > > There’s a huge step between “Captain and Commander” and “Post Captain”, as explained in the first book of O’Brien’s series, appropriately titled “Captain and Commander”. The “Captain and Commander” got a promotion to Captain but hasn’t received his first commission, and isn’t in the queue for promotion. He’s on half-pay until he gets his first ship, which might never happen. Once he’s had his first commission, he becomes Post Captain and is in the queue to be promoted to Admiral if he lives long enough. He’s still not guaranteed future commisions, but at least he gets his first ship and a chance to show his qualities and to get prize money. > > Another item not listed (somewhat appropriately) is commodore, which is the captain who is head of a fleet (but who is not an admiral). He gets a pennant (a narrow one, rather than the broad pennant of an admiral). This isn’t a rank per-se; it’s a temporary distinction that only lasts as long as the commission (as long as the captain is leader of a fleet). The first Aubrey/Maturin book was titled “Master & Commander”. Jack was promoted from Lieutenant to Commander and put in command of the brig Sophie. Commander is an honest to goodness rank, one step below Captain. Commanders are addressed as “Captain” as a courtesy however. There’s no guarantee a Commander would ever become a Post Captain - they could move between multiple commands, or never get a command, without ever being made Post. Jack had 2 commands as a Commander, the Sophie, and then the Polychrest. Even when he was made Post, he wasn’t given a ship - his first job as a Post Captain was temporary command of the Lively while it’s Captain was attending Parliament. And a Commodore gets a broad pennant. An Admiral gets a flag. It’s color and location indicates his rank. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/48 "2013-03-15T14:14:22Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Minor nitpick: The first book, and the actual rank was “Master and Commander” which is a sort of intermediate step between Lieutenant and Captain. Right, thanks! > [@muldoonthief](#): > > … Memory fail! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/49 "2013-03-15T15:49:02Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > There’s a huge step between “Captain and Commander” and “Post Captain”, I believe that is “Master and Commander”, because he is in command of a sloop of war. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/50 "2013-03-15T22:43:20Z")
Google on “Life in Nelson’s Navy”. A number of good books will come up about this subject. I have one of them, and it is extremely interesting. Those guys were really “iron men”. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/51 "2013-03-15T23:41:48Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > the _other_ Napoleonic Navy literary adventure series I’ve read two series, other than Hornblower, and am familiar with others - which one do you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/52 "2013-03-16T00:46:05Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Those guys were really “iron men”. Hearts of oak. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/53 "2013-03-16T00:48:47Z")
Here are some answers to your questions. I didn’t read the whole thread, so I apologize if these have been answered already. > [@Gestalt](#): > > I recently watched the TV adaptation of _Horatio Hornblower_ and it raised some questions in my mind about the operations of the Royal Navy at that time. > > 1. What social classes did officers belong to? Horatio was not aristocracy, just the son of a doctor, but he was an officer. Was it at all possible to become an officer even if you were lower-class? I know there was an examination to become a lieutenant, but if you were a particularly adept lower-class young man, could you take an exam and become a midshipman? It depends on exactly when you are talking about. In the 1700’s it was apparently possible to rise pretty highly based on merit. [Captain Cook](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook) is probably the most famous example of this. His dad was the head gardener for a wealthy land owner and Cook himself started out on colliers before joining the navy. However, from what I understand, as it got on into the 1800’s it became more difficult for sailors from the lower classes to get commissions. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. How frequently did young boys join crews? What were their jobs? What was the minimum age to join? Basically, there was no rule and it was pretty common for children younger than 10 to be part of ship’s crews. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. Did any bathing at all happen on these ships? Freshwater being in short supply, probably not that often. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. How did they store enough fresh water? Barrels. Of course it depended on the length of the voyage. For longer trips stops to pick up water and additional stores was necessary. > [@Gestalt](#): > > 1. Was there ever any significant unrest at the fact that class determined whether you were an officer or a seamen, and that the seamen were treated so poorly by officers and had the worst jobs? (even the best of officers on the tv show treats even the best of seamen like servants). I just kept feeling sorry for the likes of Styles and Matthews, having to constantly grovel, bow and scrape and being brutally punished for minor offenses . . . all because they were born to the wrong families. Discipline was pretty brutal. [Don’t let the cat out of the bag.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_o'_nine_tails) That said, there were still large scale mutinies back then. The largest and most famous being those at [Spithead and the Nore.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spithead_and_Nore_mutinies) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/54 "2013-03-16T00:53:42Z")
Bathing isn’t that hard when you are at sea. If there is any kind of weather, you’ll get plenty wet, and taking a dump could be downright enema-tastic. When anchored, it’s easy enough to take a longboat ashore and wade out to scrub. The big problem was that most sailors couldn’t swim a bit, so just diving in and soaping up while treading water just didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/55 "2013-03-16T02:42:54Z")
Commissions in the British Army up through the Crimean War (as long as the Grand Old Duke of Wellington had any influence) were purchased. Promotion in the Royal Navy was by merit and by social and political pull up through the rank of Captain (called Post Captain) and on plain old seniority from there on. The reason for the difference is that the army was seen as a potential threat to the government and the established order. The government and the established order wanted the officers of the army to have an investment in the established order. What better way than to make sure of that to make sure the leaders of the army had some skin in the game? While there was an official list of prices a commissions, a higher rank in a fashionable regiment, would cost considerable more than the sticker price. Woodham-Smith goes into all this in considerable detail in _The Reason Why_. The Navy, on the other hand, was not seen as a potential revolutionary threat. On top of that being a Naval officer required a fair amount of technical knowledge. See the career of the Earl of Cardigan for a demonstration of how far you could get in the British Army without knowing much of anything. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/56 "2013-03-16T02:49:10Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > See the career of the Earl of Cardigan for a demonstration of how far you could get in the British Army without knowing much of anything. That sounds like someone Flashman spoke of. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/57 "2013-03-16T10:17:31Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > \*\*4. they realized that their sailors were healthier than other sailors because of it and kept doing it. Sailors from other countries would call them Limeys, which is how that slang term came into being. They didn’t keep doing it, and their sailors weren’t healthier. British sailors continued getting scurvy from the time lemon juice was replaced with boiled lime juice, until sail was replaced by steam (which required shorter voyages). On long voyages, 'Krouts were healthier than Limeys. ---
**Author:** ![Pacific420](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Pacific420](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pacific420)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/58 "2013-03-16T15:12:53Z")
I’m always relying on my wife to provide my reading material which is usually fictional novels but I’m going to find a few of the books mentioned here. Iron men for sure Daylate, Hearts of Oak for sure Hearts of oak are our ships, Hearts of oak are our men, We always are ready, steady boys, steady, To charge and to conquer again and again. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/59 "2013-03-16T16:16:08Z")
I’m not sure if it’s quite correct to say you had to be of the middle class - the examination required you to be of an educated standard (with a developed ability to study, learn and present your learning in examination) … and, of couse, working class at that time were not educated. It amounts to the same thing but, in my view, education was more apropos than ‘class’. If you look at the earlier careers of Nelson’s captains at Trafalgar … I’ve yet to see one who’s biography didn’t read like Audie Murphy on steroids: I’m sure I’ve read that much of the success of the RN at that time was due to the to the hugely competitive meritocracy amongst the officer class. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892/60 "2013-03-16T18:22:49Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve read two series, other than Hornblower, and am familiar with others - which one do you have in mind? Don’t know what they had in mind, but besides the O’Brien series (Aubrey/Maturin) there’s Alexander Kent’s series about Richard Bolitho and Adam Hardy’s Fox series, in addition to the classic Francois Marryat books. And Forester wrote other Napoleonic stories besides Hornblower, mostly ashore, such as _the Gun_, _Rifleman Dodd_, and (for another naval story) _The Captain from Connecticut_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-the-british-navy-during-the-napoleonic-wars/652892.md?page=4)