Questions about US military special forces units

Factual Questions
21

All of them! In fact, I know a “Paralegal NCO” with a Ranger Tab. You don’t even have to be in Ranger Regiment to go to Ranger School and wear a Ranger Tab. Even MOSs not on that list can go to Ranger School and wear the tab. But if you’re on that list, and you’re in Regiment, they will hound you to go to school and earn your tab. The pressure is severe and in fact, they will look to get rid of you if you don’t eventually get it.

No, it’s different. POGs in SF units can simply be assigned to the unit. All combat support and combat service support personnel in Regiment must pass RIP or ROP just like the combat MOSs do.
You have to earn a spot in Regiment, whereas you can simply be assigned to Group.

That’s where you’re wrong.

He was exaggerating to make a point. There is no preference for either combat or non-combat MOSs at Selection. Some individual instructors in Phase II may have their personal preference, but “SF” does not.

22

First of all, the US Coast Guard is not normally a part of the Department of Defense (although it can be transferred to the Department of the Navy in wartime). It was formerly a branch of the Department of Transportation, and now belongs to the Department of Homeland Security (where it utterly doesn’t belong, but whatever).

The elite operations unit in the USCG are the Aviation Survival Technicians, commonly referred to as “rescue swimmers” and publicized in the (execrable) Kevin Costner-Aston Kutcher film The Guardian. The Air Force SpecOps units include the Air Force Pararesuce Jumpers (PJs), Weather Operators, Tactical Air Command and Control Specialists, and the operators of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, which performs infil/exfil for the Army and other branches as necessary. The Central Intelligence Agency also has its own covert operations arm called the Special Activities Division, largely recruited (at least historically) from the Marine Corps Division Recon and Force Recon.

IMHO, PJs are the most bad-assed of the bad. Most SpecOps go into a hot zone on the prowl, perform reconnaissance, sabotage, hostage rescue, whatever, and then blow out hot to the r.v. On the other hand, PJs go into a hot zone, hunt around for a downed flier or injured soldier/marine, and then fight their way out. Purportedly, these guys never have to buy a drink in any military-favored bar as any soldier, sailor, flyer, or marine will be more than happy to pay the tab.

In general, the tensions between branches are attenuated in the Special Operations community, partially because of the deliberate effort to unify command, but also because unlike traditional units in the different branches, these guys all have pretty common missions and can’t allow service rivalry to cause friction. This also means that it is fairly easy to shift from one service to another; a lot of Delta operators come from the Navy UDT, Marine DevRecon, or even non-military sources, as well as from normal Ranger units. Because there are both high athletic and intellectual standards for entry and acceptance into the Special Operations units, they tend to be both less picky about the provenance of candidates, and more permissive about behavior (within a certain range) than traditional units. That being said, you can’t just walk in off the street and demand that a recruiter put you up for selection; you basically have to be nominated by someone within or attached to the community to even get the invite (typically after at least two tours or equivalent experience) and then have to pass a grueling and intentionally demoralizing selection process before even entering the training regime.

Stranger

23

Stranger, 160th SOAR is an Army unit, not Air Force. The pilots are warrant officers.

Also, what unit are you referring to when you say that you can’t just walk in off the street and demand a recruiter put you up for selection? With most of them, one can do just that!
SEALS, Rangers, PJs, Green Berets… they all offer a civilian the chance to go from the street, to initial training and then straight to the respective selection processes. (RIP, SFAS, BUDs, etc)
For Delta, you do have to be a current member of the US Army to attend their selection course, but you don’t have to be invited. You only have to fill out a packet and go! They hold a selection course twice a year–in the Fall and the Spring.

24

Is it true to be Special Forces, you gotta cut off an enemy’s ear?:smiley:

Seriously though, what happens if you enlist with the intent to join one of the special operations groups and wash out of the training (not at all unlikely)? Do you get a parting handshake and return to civilian life or do you get sent into regular Army (or whatever)?

25

When I was in the fleet I met plenty of people who rang the bell at BUDS. I also met plenty of people who failed nuke school. Those are the two most common ways people get suckered into joining.

26

I know about not being in Regiment and still going to school, I’m sending one of my teamleaders there in February. As for POGs not being allowed to go, I do recall letters to the editor in Army Times on the issue, roughtly the same time the POGs whined about the CIB, because it was closed to non-combat personnel. And the only non-Infantry dudes I’ve ever seen with a Ranger tab outside of Regiment are Engineer and Tanker officers. No enlisted, just the officers.

27

Even Colin Powell got one: http://www.spock.com/picture_frame/587c099w0fcb969768

28

It’s very likely that they will quit or otherwise wash out of training. In fact, they are encouraged to quit everyday.
If a civilian joins the Army with a contract to be, say, a Ranger or a Green Beret, he will first attend initial entry training as an infantryman. (For Ranger Regiment, he could come in as other jobs besides infantry though. He could be a “Ranger Truck Driver” or a “Ranger Cook” or a “Ranger Medic” etc. But he’s going to go to initial entry training for that particular job set. There is no such option for Green Beret. If you are a civilian and you want to become a Green Beret, you WILL attend infantry training first)
Anyway, after they finish their initial training, they have earned their MOS. They will now go to Airborne School. After Airborne School, the Ranger wannabes will attend Ranger Indoctrination Program. If they quite or otherwise fail there, they will be immediately assigned to some other unit according to “needs of the Army”. They will retain whatever job rating they earned before getting to RIP. They are obligated to finish out their enlistment.
The Green Beret wannabes will attend a prep course that will further prepare them for the selection process. Most of the washouts occur at this prep phase. The course does a good job of weeding out soldiers before they even go to the selection course. The soldiers who quit or fail the prep course will be reassigned to some random infantry unit according to the needs of the Army.
Those who pass the prep course will go on to Selection. If at Selection or any of the subsequent phases, the soldier fails or quits, he will be outprocessed from the course and reassigned. He will remain an infantryman, and will go wherever the Army needs him. He is obligated to finish his enlistment.

For the Navy, I hear its similar–but worse. I hear (out of my element here), that you don’t even pick your job. You will enlist for SEAL and if you fail or quit, you will become any number of needed job, including “Boatswan Mate” which is a generic catch-all job that involves Painting, cleaning, barnacle scrapping and all manner of unskilled, labor stuff.
Sounds about right. Maybe someone more knowledgable can fill in the Navy stuff.

29

It’s either “Bosun” or “bos’n”(which is how it’s pronounced) or “Boatswain”. Bosun or (Bosun’s mate)was a supervisory job in the old navy, he supervised all the “decK” duties, which certainly included cleaning, but also cargo rigging, anchor hauling and just about everything not up in the sails or down in the hull.

It’s one of the oldest ranks afloat.

30

What does the selection application look like?

Also, I just finished reading a book about the Intelligence Support Activity (or whatever it is called these days) and it claimed that members were recruited from all branches of the military based on needed skills. There is a subset of shooters within the group who are recruited from Delta and DEVGRU, but there are others who are not necessarily the most physically fit. There are also female members. The work of this group is intelligence collection tailored to the needs of special forces, especially Delta and DEVGRU. They collect SIGINT, recruit agents, perform pathfinder missions, do things like preparing safe houses in denied areas, perform close target reconnaissance, etc. They aren’t exactly the “baddest of the bad” but complement other members of JSOC. At least as far as I can tell.

Rob

31

The Coast Guard has a Deployable Operations Group.

Specifically, the Maritime Safety & Security Teams, Tactical Law Enforcement Teams, Maritime Security Response Team, Port Security Units.

32

The application itself is just like a one page form and a volunteer statement or two. Plus you attach to it some of your previous evaluation reports and pertanent stuff like you security clearance papers, necessary qualifications (like airborne), PT Card, Weapons Qual Card, an valid physical exam, and that’s about it. It’s all done through email and online. Then they send you orders to report to the selection course. It’s just temporary.
If you pass, you go back to your unit and start to outprocess. You will get your orders for the 1st Operational Detachment - Delta, and you will receive follow-on training.

33

Cool! We should be putting teams of those guys aboard tankers off the coast of Somalia, if we aren’t already.

Unfortunate acronym, though…

34

According to Black Hawk Down, some Rangers in 3/75 disappeared (although I assume the CO knew they left) and no one saw them again until they were deployed to Task Force Ranger as part of the Delta contingent. That sounds a bit different from what you describe here. Have things changed or have I misunderstood? Also, how much experience is required to apply? Do you know that you are signing up for Delta or is it referred to euphemistically?

Thanks,
Rob

35

referred to as 1st operational detachment - delta. You know what you’re applying from the begining. it starts with an email from the sof recruiters. nothing special aboiut that. they send it out twice a year to EVERYONE eligible… you follow the link in the email if youre intereste2d and start getting the paperwork together.

not sure2 how thiungs w1ere in bhd time… i suspect those rangers. simply didnt bother letting anyone know what they were up to. the command and leade2rship would have had to know i assume.

36

i would have to check my email (on another computer) to see the experience requirements. i think it is something like 2 years. nothingi insane.

(sorry for type. using a super mini lifebook. i like it but damn it is hard to type)

37

Civillian here ,but Delta in the 90’s may have been a lot more select about its invitees. With Astan, Iraq, and god knows where else, ramping up operations may have required opening the pool to a wider audience.

Declan

38

I should google this , but whats the difference between 11 alpha , bravo and Charlie. Bravo is straight leg infantry as far as I know, but the other two ?

Declan

39

11A is Infantry officer, 11B is as you say the straight leg/mechanized/airborne infantry guys, and 11C are mortarmen. The Army considers 11Cs Infantry, but if you ever see them on patrol it’s easily proven otherwise. Or maybe that’s just the numberous 11Cs I’ve worked with and by coincidence I’ve only ever seen the bad apples.

40

11X = Initial Entry Infantry Trainee. (You will get reidentified as 11B or 11C at some point in Basic Training.
11B = Infantryman
11C = Infantry Mortorman
11Z = Infantry First Sergeant (Once you reach a high enough rank, you’re “all purpose”)

No longer used MOSs. These have all been absorbed by 11B.

11M = Mechanized Infantry
11H = Anti-Armor Infantry. (There is now an ASI–Additional Skill Identifier–for anti-armor. If you go to Anti-Armor Leader Course, you get an ASI of B8. So your MOS would look something like 11B3PB8.)

Also, I checked the email and the minimum requirements to attend Delta Selection are:
E-4 to E-8
2.5 years Time in Service
21 years of age or older
GT score of 110 or above (or capable of raising it to a 110)
Note: GT score must be raised to a 110 prior to submitting application.

Also, the email does use the term Delta Force. It offeres the following description of the unit:
“1st Special Forces Operational Detachment DELTA is a US Army special operations unit organized to conduct selected missions world-wide, which require rapid response and surgical application of a unique variety of special operation skills.”