# Questions about what it means when the US gives arms to such and such country.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 29, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300 "2006-10-29T03:19:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/1 "2006-10-29T03:19:20Z")
I remember seeing a documentary while I was in France about Islamists in the jungles of Indonesia. It was really a terrifyingly intimate account of the lives these men lead hidden away. Though the whole thing was generally very unsettling, there was one part that really got under my skin. During a diatribe about how they would do all that they could to bring down the west and what not, they picked up their guns and held them up to the camera, laughing and pointing to the “Made in the USA” engraved on their rocket launchers, their machine guns, etc. I want to know some stuff about how it actually happens that the US actually disseminates weapons around the world. Large and small. Yeah, I seriously doubt these men bought their weapons from a legitamate dealer, but when a newspaper says the US gave a country weapons, does that mean the US government, or an American company like Lockheed Martin sold them weapons? Or does the US do it _through_ a company like Lockheed Martin? Are US weapons companies aloud to sell weapons to anyone with the funds to buy them? I remember, vaguely, a 60 minutes peice a while back on a guy in, maybe, Tennessee who had invented one o’ them big ole’, heavy duty machine guns (anti-tank, maybe) and had made a killing off selling them. Turns out, a lot of them, if I remember correctly, had ended up in the hands of less than savory people. Maybe, the people who want to kill our soldiers. Anyone know more about this? What responsibility to weapons manufacturers have to make sure that their weapons are not going to get in the hands of the wrong people (which, I know, is very hard to qualify). I put this in GQ because I want to know how these issues stand right now, not how they should be. If someone wants to ask if I’ve seen Lord of War, I haven’t. Maybe I should. ---
**Author:** ![Architeuthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Architeuthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Architeuthis)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/2 "2006-10-29T10:15:18Z")
[QUOTE=gitfiddle] I remember seeing a documentary while I was in France about Islamists in the jungles of Indonesia. It was really a terrifyingly intimate account of the lives these men lead hidden away. Though the whole thing was generally very unsettling, there was one part that really got under my skin. During a diatribe about how they would do all that they could to bring down the west and what not, they picked up their guns and held them up to the camera, laughing and pointing to the “Made in the USA” engraved on their rocket launchers, their machine guns, etc. I want to know some stuff about how it actually happens that the US actually disseminates weapons around the world. Large and small. Yeah, I seriously doubt these men bought their weapons from a legitamate dealer, but when a newspaper says the US gave a country weapons, does that mean the US government, or an American company like Lockheed Martin sold them weapons? Or does the US do it _through_ a company like Lockheed Martin? Are US weapons companies aloud to sell weapons to anyone with the funds to buy them? I remember, vaguely, a 60 minutes peice a while back on a guy in, maybe, Tennessee who had invented one o’ them big ole’, heavy duty machine guns (anti-tank, maybe) and had made a killing off selling them. Turns out, a lot of them, if I remember correctly, had ended up in the hands of less than savory people. Maybe, the people who want to kill our soldiers. Anyone know more about this? What responsibility to weapons manufacturers have to make sure that their weapons are not going to get in the hands of the wrong people (which, I know, is very hard to qualify). I put this in GQ because I want to know how these issues stand right now, not how they should be. If someone wants to ask if I’ve seen Lord of War, I haven’t. Maybe I should. [/QUOTE] Anti tank MG??? Made and sold to civilians by some guy in Tennessee? Where are you getting your info from? Michael Moore and Sean Penn? Having served in Panama and the 1st Gulf War with the 82nd ABN DIV, let me say from experience----it takes just a wee bit more ordnance than your standard MG to take out a tank. Trust me on this, okay. Also another fact.------95% of military weapons that are in the hands of terrorists and other piss ant countries are either Soviet/Russian or Chinese made!!! Thats a fact! I know! Been there! Please do not believe everything you see and hear on CNN. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/3 "2006-10-29T10:21:26Z")
I don’t have any cites for you, but the arms business is\*\* very \*\* profitable. Any corrupt dictator is going to want weapons to stay in power. Weapons are glamorous and powerful, and much easier than running a democracy. Western countries making big money out of the trade include the US, UK and France. Who can forget this touching moment - wonder what happened to them? [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Saddam\_rumsfeld.jpg](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/21/Saddam_rumsfeld.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/4 "2006-10-29T11:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=Architeuthis] Anti tank MG??? Made and sold to civilians by some guy in Tennessee? Where are you getting your info from? Michael Moore and Sean Penn? [/QUOTE] I believe the OP is refering to [this story](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/06/60minutes/main665257.shtml) about the banning of the Barrett .50 caliber rifle. It may not be able to take out a tank, but it can make mincemeat out of anything less. ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/5 "2006-10-29T11:28:35Z")
From the article: > [@](#): > > “Clearly, it is a very powerful weapon. We saw what it could do as far as going through armor,” says [New York City’s Police Commissioner Ray] Kelly. “It would be a weapon that could do a lot of damage – no question about that.” This is exactly what the FBI learned in 1993 at Waco when Branch Davidians fired a Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifle at them. In response, the FBI deployed Bradley fighting vehicles for protection. But even that wasn’t sufficient, and heavier armor was brought in. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/6 "2006-10-29T13:38:13Z")
[QUOTE=gitfiddle] …I remember, vaguely, a 60 minutes peice a while back on a guy in, maybe, Tennessee who had invented one o’ them big ole’, heavy duty machine guns (anti-tank, maybe) and had made a killing off selling them. Turns out, a lot of them, if I remember correctly, had ended up in the hands of less than savory people. Maybe, the people who want to kill our soldiers. Anyone know more about this?.. [/QUOTE] Your thinking of this guy, [Florin Krasniqi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florin_Krasniqi), who bought them, > [@](#): > > In 1998-99, he raised $30 million from the Albanian community in the United States for the KLA and smuggled hundreds of high-powered American sniper rifles to Kosovo for guerrillas, which were distributed by his extended family clan in the region (see [2]). One of his cousins, Adrian Krasniqi, was one of the founding members of the KLA. He was Florin’s second cousin. Adrian was an engineering student in Pristina in 1996 when it is claimed that he lost faith in Kosovo’s pacifist government and joined a cell of the then-underground KLA. He headed up the rebels’ weapons-smuggling operation and was the first guerrilla to die in a KLA uniform. Another cousin, Xhevdet Krasniqi, was also involved in the weapons-smuggling. > He resides in either Bay Ridge or Kensington, Brooklyn… > …His family in Kosovo helped start the guerilla army that started Kosovo’s war for independence from Serbia, which considers it to be a Serbian province, and ultimate reunification with Albania… > …“After Sept. 11, he realized ‘If I could do this, who else could do this?’” – director Klaartje Quirijns, explaining why KLA gun runner Florin Krasniqi decided to let the filmmaker tell his story of how he (mostly) legally bought tons of guns in the United States and shipped abroad. Many of the guns were obtained from such outlets as the Barrett Firearms Company and Schwarzman Surplus… and this [guy](http://www.barrettrifles.com/) from Tennessee, who sold them, > [@](#): > > From the [link](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/06/60minutes/main665257.shtml) above, > …The .50-caliber rifle, one of the world’s best combat weapons, was invented 22 years ago in Murfreesboro, Tenn., by Ronnie Barrett… [QUOTE=Architeuthis] …Having served in Panama and the 1st Gulf War with the 82nd ABN DIV, let me say from experience----it takes just a wee bit more ordnance than your standard MG to take out a tank. Trust me on this, okay… [/QUOTE] Could ya use the .50 Barrett to take out the tanks tracks? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/7 "2006-10-29T14:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Anti tank MG??? Made and sold to civilians by some guy in Tennessee? Where are you getting your info from? Michael Moore and Sean Penn? > Having served in Panama and the 1st Gulf War with the 82nd ABN DIV, let me say from experience----it takes just a wee bit more ordnance than your standard MG to take out a tank. Trust me on this, okay. > Also another fact.------95% of military weapons that are in the hands of terrorists and other piss ant countries are either Soviet/Russian or Chinese made!!! Thats a fact! I know! Been there! > Please do not believe everything you see and hear on CNN. **Architeuthis** , I was pretty clear that I don’t remember many of the details. I should have been more explicit in that I have no experience with weapons above a 12 guage shot gun. I don’t believe anything I see on \*any \*news channel. They’re all shit. That’s why I’m here. I just worry when people think that only one is worse than the other. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/8 "2006-10-29T14:54:43Z")
\*\*JKilez \*\*and **Crowmanyclouds** , that was it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/9 "2006-10-29T18:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*when a newspaper says the US gave a country weapons, does that mean the US government, or an American company like Lockheed Martin sold them weapons? > Or does the US do it through a company like Lockheed Martin? > \* Either method can be used. If it is second-hand equipment it may well come direct from the Defense Dept (it may be leased or loned, to try to ensure that it doesn’t get passed onto third parties). Or it might be a purchase from commercial companies using funds given them by the US government. There is a certification system which is supposed to declare who the end-user is going to be, with penalties for false declaration. ---
**Author:** ![Architeuthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Architeuthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Architeuthis)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/10 "2006-10-29T20:56:28Z")
[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds] Your thinking of this guy, [Florin Krasniqi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florin_Krasniqi), who bought them,and this [guy](http://www.barrettrifles.com/) from Tennessee, who sold them,Could ya use the .50 Barrett to take out the tanks tracks? CMC fnord! [/QUOTE] ‘‘Could you use the .50 Barrett to take out the tank tracks?’’ No. Not even with a perfectly placed shot. Generally speaking, anti tank mines are used for taking out the tracks on a tank. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/11 "2006-10-29T23:11:07Z")
There are numerous ways “offical” US military aid ends up in other countries… > **[Projects and Partnerships](https://www.pogo.org/projects-and-partnerships)** > > Since POGO was founded in 1981, we have taken on new programs and entered into partnerships as we’ve grown our effort to build a more accountable government. [http://www.dsca.mil/programs/eda/progdef.htm](http://www.dsca.mil/programs/eda/progdef.htm) There are fairly tight controls on US arms exports (at least compared to some other developed nations). So US companies cannot export arms to whoever they want. And shipping arms to a country that is currently considered “persona non grata” is very serious offense. This would have applied to Indonesia from 1992 to 2006, but [not any more](http://www.cdi.org/program/issue/document.cfm?DocumentID=3426&IssueID=84&StartRow=1&ListRows=10&appendURL=&Orderby=DateLastUpdated&ProgramID=73&issueID=84) apparently. Given the historically close relationship between some of the Islamic Militants in Indonesia and the military, it is likely that the arms you saw were pre-1992 military aid to the indonesian military that ended up in the militants armoury. Of course there have been plenty of cases of the US giving “unoffical” military support to coutnries or groups down the years (the Contras, Guatamala, Afghnistan, etc.), which presumably continue to this day (though not you’d hope, even with current retarded administration, involving islamic militants). These are usually acheived via a front company, but the result of these transactions are usually soviet-bloc arms, for exactly this reason )its all well and good everyone “knowing” that the US supports some group or government, but its quite another having a film of a militant holding a US gun complete with a “made in US” sticker). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-about-what-it-means-when-the-us-gives-arms-to-such-and-such-country/378300/12 "2006-10-29T23:36:19Z")
[US Code: Title 22,Chapter 39—Arms Export Control](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode22/usc_sup_01_22_10_39.html) CMC fnord!