# Questions (and some videos) regarding JFK's assasination. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061 "2008-11-10T17:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/41 "2008-11-11T08:22:36Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > 1. Officer Hargis sprayed with Kennedy’s brain matter, being behind the limo. The matter was sprayed in a cloud, the wind was blowing, the motorcycle was moving basically towards the cloud. Is it any wonder he got sprayed with some of it? In the [stabilized version of the Zapruder film](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozx4_4DZp38)(Warning! Extremely graphic!), the spray is clearly out the front of the head, indicating a shot from behind. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/42 "2008-11-11T09:18:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m sorry, but it is. Three seconds is not an overly long time to cock the weapon. > > And he missed one shot. Two out of three’s not impressive. 3 shots at 3 seconds a shot is 9 seconds. Don’t know if you saw CBS’s test but 10 out of 11 marksman couldn’t make the shot. The 11th person was the author of the book I talked about. I’m not hugely interested in defending the book but I read it with the intentions of shredding the logic behind it and ended up with more questions than answers. If the FBI did indeed turn over 3 cartridges for forensic evaluation and one of them was unfired then the Warren Commission is a lie. All the other conspiracy discussion is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/43 "2008-11-11T09:23:26Z")
duplicate post. please delete ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/44 "2008-11-11T09:33:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 3 shots at 3 seconds a shot is 9 seconds. Don’t know if you saw CBS’s test but 10 out of 11 marksman couldn’t make the shot. The 11th person was the author of the book I talked about. Presumably, for the first shot the gun is already cocked, so you are shooting at 0, 3 and 6 seconds. But I can’t speak to the CBS test b/c I haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/45 "2008-11-11T09:58:44Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Presumably, for the first shot the gun is already cocked, so you are shooting at 0, 3 and 6 seconds. But I can’t speak to the CBS test b/c I haven’t seen it. You’re correct. I corrected that in the deleted version but was too late to alter my original post. I remember the CBS test and it was a real world simulation of the event. Shooting the gun in the time frame alloted and actually lining up the shot are 2 different things. It’s not easy to do. Given that the test target was on a fixed plane moving on a linear track I would say it was easier than the actual shots fired. But the evidence posted in the video shows an FBI document identifying 2 spent cartridges and one unfired cartidge. If the document is real then the Warren Commision is a deliberate lie. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/46 "2008-11-11T11:22:22Z")
Okay, I’m gonna weigh in here and risk scorn and derision from some of the posters here with whom I’m usually in agreement. 😃 First of all, I’m hardly a routine conspiracy theorist (I believe we landed on the moon, etc.), and I haven’t come to my doubts in the wake of the Warren Commision report as I became doubtful as soon as it was released. So, having said that, there are two main areas where to me things just don’t add up. First of all, there’s the neck wound. Autopsy photos show an entry wound roughly in the upper middle part of Kennedy’s back (not his neck) and an exit wound in the center of his throat below the Adam’s apple. In other words, it appears to have been a straightline shot from behind rather than from above and to the left, with the wound tracking roughly parallel to the ground. I would think that a person sitting in a car and shot from above and behind would exhibit a wound in which the bullet travelled downwardly and to the left from the point of impact. People who I’ve mentioned this to in the past invariably say things like Kennedy must have been leaning forward when the shot was fired, he might have turned in his seat, etc., but the video shows him neither turning nor bending, and besides, even if he were bent over, I would think the wound would still have tracked to the left. Then there is the head shot. Penn & Teller’s (oddly edited) video shows the melon merely rolling backward and toppling off it’s pedestal. Kennedy however, after having been hit in the neck was slumping down and to his left toward Jackie when he was hit in the head. His entire body then violently changed direction upon impact and was driven so forcefully up and to the left that his left shoulder crested the boot of the converible top. This motion appears to have happened much too quickly to have been a reflexive motion on Kennedy’s part (reflexive stiffening of legs, for example), or to be the result of an equal and opposite reaction to matter being blown out an exit wound. Thus it appears to me that as he was slumping downward and to his left toward his wife, he was hit a glancing blow to the right temple area, and that it was the glancing nature of the bullet that both caused his head to explode as it did and to drive his body up and rearward to the left. Now, as to where the head shot came from I have no idea, but it appears to me that it would have had to come from a vantage point somewhat lower than Kennedy’s head, with doesn’t fit with a shooter higher up on the grassy knoll. But I’ve heard and read enough from people who have experience with seeing animals or people shot to know that Kennedy’s head wound can indeed be consistent with his having been shot from ahead and to the right. So it looks to me like a person could legitimately feel that the neck wound may very well have come from street level and behind, and that the fatal head wound came from ahead and to the right, and that to think this way does not automatically label him as a ‘conspiracy theorist’. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/47 "2008-11-11T11:57:39Z")
I meant to say: Kennedy however, after having been hit in the neck, was slumping down and to his left toward Jackie when he was hit in the head, and then his entire body violently changed direction and was driven so forcefully up and to the left that his left shoulder crested the boot of the converible top. Editing is not always my friend, especially late at night. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/48 "2008-11-11T14:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > From the OP: …if there ever was a case in history, in which one can talk about any type of government conspiracy, this one is it. I take it that you are intentionally leaving out those times when government conspiracies have actually been proven: The Watergate Conspiracies, for example, where the President’s top advisors went to prison as indicted conspirators and the President was designated an “unindicted co-conspirator.” And what was it that Scooter Libby was convicted of? Wasn’t there a hint of a conspiracy to get even with Joe Wilson by exposing his wife? Do you think there is evidence that bids were rigged so that Halliburton Oil would get contracts for the war in the Middle East? (As far as I know, there has been no legal action taken on that yet.) Not all people who suspect conspiracies in the government are extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Frustrated\_Wonderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a4c791/32.png) [@Frustrated\_Wonderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frustrated_Wonderer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/49 "2008-11-11T14:17:16Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I take it that you are intentionally leaving out those times when government conspiracies have actually been proven: The Watergate Conspiracies, for example, where the President’s top advisors went to prison as indicted conspirators and the President was designated an “unindicted co-conspirator.” > > And what was it that Scooter Libby was convicted of? Wasn’t there a hint of a conspiracy to get even with Joe Wilson by exposing his wife? > > Do you think there is evidence that bids were rigged so that Halliburton Oil would get contracts for the war in the Middle East? (As far as I know, there has been no legal action taken on that yet.) > > Not all people who suspect conspiracies in the government are extremists. True this. But it´s a whole other story to believe say, the 9/11 consipiracies in which the government was inolved in the attacks. There are people willing to believe really crazy things. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/50 "2008-11-11T14:53:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, I’m gonna weigh in here and risk scorn and derision from some of the posters here with whom I’m usually in agreement. 😃 Try not to abuse me - you know how sensitive I can be. 😃 > [@](#): > > First of all, there’s the neck wound. Autopsy photos show an entry wound roughly in the upper middle part of Kennedy’s back (not his neck) and an exit wound in the center of his throat below the Adam’s apple. In other words, it appears to have been a straightline shot from behind rather than from above and to the left, with the wound tracking roughly parallel to the ground. However - > [@](#): > > Warren Commission Exhibit 397 includes a drawing (Vol. XVII, p. 45) which purports to show the approximate location of the wound, and specifically states that it was 14 cm. (5-1/2 inches) from the tip of the mastoid process (behind the right ear), and 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion (the extreme tip of the right shoulder bone). Photographs 11, 12, 38 and 39 confirm the accuracy of these measurements. And > [@](#): > > Photographs Nos. 26 and 38 show the wound in the back of the neck to be higher from the horizontal plane than the wound in the throat. [Cite.](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt) So it was not parallel to the ground. And if it were a straight line, wouldn’t that mean that the shooter was directly in front of the limousine, standing in the road? How then could Gov. Connally be hit in the thigh? > [@](#): > > I would think that a person sitting in a car and shot from above and behind would exhibit a wound in which the bullet travelled downwardly and to the left from the point of impact. If you track the bullet trajectory back thru Gov. Connally’s wounds, you see that [this is exactly what happens](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt-faa.jpg). And the trackback points directly at the window on the sixth floor. > [@](#): > > People who I’ve mentioned this to in the past invariably say things like Kennedy must have been leaning forward when the shot was fired, he might have turned in his seat, etc., but the video shows him neither turning nor bending, and besides, even if he were bent over, I would think the wound would still have tracked to the left. The calculated angle of the bullet was something like 21 degrees ([cite, very graphic](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/angle.jpg)). > [@](#): > > Kennedy however, after having been hit in the neck, was slumping down and to his left toward Jackie when he was hit in the head, and then his entire body violently changed direction and was driven so forcefully up and to the left that his left shoulder crested the boot of the converible top. Later testimony to the Rockefeller Commission from Dr. Werner Spitz and Alfred Olivier, DVM, both testified that this reaction was due to the neuromuscular reaction to the head shot. ([Cite.](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm)) > [@](#): > > Now, as to where the head shot came from I have no idea, but it appears to me that it would have had to come from a vantage point somewhat lower than Kennedy’s head, with doesn’t fit with a shooter higher up on the grassy knoll. Correct. Thus, it would seem to have come from someone standing in the street ahead of Kennedy, which we know to be impossible. > [@Sherlock Holmes](#): > > When you have eliminated what is impossible, then whatever remains, however implausible, is the truth. It is hard to believe that one lone nut, especially a loser like Oswald, could kill Kennedy. But that is how all the evidence points. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/51 "2008-11-11T15:56:23Z")
One other factor that a lot of people forget is that there were numerous eyewitnesses who saw Oswald shooting. There is a building directly across the street form the Texas Book Depository and people were in the windows of that building to watch Kennedy drive by. When they heard the first shot, they looked up and witnessed Oswald firing the second and third shots. There were also people watching from the windows one floor below Oswald. When they heard the first shot they looked up and saw Oswald shooting from a distance of less than ten feet away. Oswald had been observed going up to the room with a long thin box. He was witnessed after the shooting running away from the room. When people went into the room they found the empty box and a rifle. It was Oswald’s rifle and his fingerprints were on it. Now ask conspiracy theorists what evidence they have for their theory. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/52 "2008-11-11T16:23:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 3 shots at 3 seconds a shot is 9 seconds. No, it would be six seconds, because you start timing at the first shot and stop at the third shot. But with Posner’s analysis of the Zapruder film and Connally’s lapel-flip, pretty much everyone pegs that time as around 8.5 seconds, so that’s 4.25 seconds to reload, aim, and fire. > [@Magiver](#): > > But the evidence posted in the video shows an FBI document identifying 2 spent cartridges and one unfired cartidge. If the document is real then the Warren Commision is a deliberate lie. I addressed this earlier: [McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/round.htm) The Warren Commission dealt with where the three empty cartridges traveled. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/53 "2008-11-11T16:39:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was Oswald’s rifle and his fingerprints were on it. Palm print, actually. (Just to pick nits.) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/54 "2008-11-11T16:50:41Z")
Why is it hard to believe one lone nut could kill Kennedy? One lone nut can do _anything_. It’s conspiracies that have to worry about leaks. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/55 "2008-11-11T19:01:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 3 shots at 3 seconds a shot is 9 seconds. I don’t think you’ve really thought this through. Three shots in six seconds require TWO reloads, not three. Think about it. BANG, clock starts Reload. BANG. Reload. BANG, clock stops. You only have to cock the action _twice_ in the 6 seconds; the first loading of the rifle could have been done ten seconds, ten minutes, or ten hours prior to the first shot. Since the clock begins one the first shot is fired, you’re using that 5.6 seconds for two shots, not three. And the 5.6 or 6 seconds is a guess; some estimates have put Oswald’s time at 8 seconds or even more. It’s a kid’s shot. > [@](#): > > Don’t know if you saw CBS’s test but 10 out of 11 marksman couldn’t make the shot. The 11th person was the author of the book I talked about. This statement is simply a complete falsehood, if I am reading the Wikipedia entry correctly: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] CBS conducted a firing test in 1967 at the H. P. White Ballistics Laboratory located in Street, Maryland. For the test 11 marksmen from diverse backgrounds were invited to participate: 3 Maryland State Troopers, 1 weapons engineer, 1 sporting goods dealer, 1 sportsman, 1 ballistics technician, 1 ex-paratrooper, and 3 H. P. White employees. CBS provided several Carcano rifles for the test. The MC rifle WC-139 was not used in this test. The targets were color coded orange for head/shoulder silhouette and blue for a near miss. The results of the CBS test were as follows: 7 of 11 shooters were able to fire three rounds under 5.6 seconds (64%). Of those 7 shooters, 6 hit the orange target once (86%), and 5 hit the orange target twice (71%). Out of 60 rounds fired, 25 hit the orange (42%), 21 hit the blue portion of the target (35%), and there were 14 misses on the target (23%). One volunteer was unable to operate his rifle effectively so the following statistics are based on the 10 remaining shooters. The average time of all 10 was 5.64 seconds. The mode was 5.55 seconds and the mean was 5.70 seconds. The average for the top five shooters was 5.12 seconds, and for the bottom five shooters 6.16 seconds. There was a high occurrence of jamming during the test. On average the rifles jammed after 6 rounds. The most rounds fired without jamming were 14, 11, 10 in a row. The least was 0 (back to back). The first shooter to lead off the experiment was Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper. The record of his effort: 5.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / 6.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / NT (jam at 3rd cartidge)/ 5.2 sec: 1 orange, 2 low / 5.0 sec: 1 orange, 2 blue. Sherman was able to fire 8 rounds before his rifle jammed. Of all shooters, the fastest times were: 4.1 sec, 4.3 sec, 4.9 sec, 5.0 sec. The best accuracy was 3 orange in 5.2 seconds. The rifles were oiled and allowed to cool down between shooters. CBS reporter Dan Rather attended this experiment. [/QUOTE] Are these not the true results? Is there a conspiracy around this, too? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/56 "2008-11-11T19:33:02Z")
Another question for those who believe the conspiracy planted the rifle on the scene and the proof of this is that that make of rifle couldn’t have made the shots involved: why would they do that? Wouldn’t the conspiracy have planted a top-quality rifle that nobody would have questioned? They were trying to set it up so Oswald looked guilty, right? So why plant a bad rifle on the scene? Did they do it just so future conspiracy theorists could see through their deception and feel smart? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/57 "2008-11-11T19:59:52Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I addressed this earlier: [McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/round.htm) > The Warren Commission dealt with where the three empty cartridges traveled. That explains it but I don’t understand why the unfired round wasn’t mentioned. The picture you linked was photo-shopped so it isn’t much help. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/58 "2008-11-11T20:51:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That explains it but I don’t understand why the unfired round wasn’t mentioned. The only evidence you have that there WAS a live round appears to be people claiming to see one in that photograph. From what one can honestly tell, in the original photo (even without going to the Photoshopped version) it could be either a spent casing or an unfired round; there’s no way to say for sure that’s an unfired round. So you have no real, hard evidence there ever was such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/59 "2008-11-11T21:36:46Z")
RickJay, are you talking about [this photo](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/round.gif)? That’s clearly a spent shell. The photo has not been Photoshopped - it was sharpened with Paint Shop Pro. But the page I linked to _does_ talk about a live round, and says that one was in the rifle when the police found it in the sniper’s nest. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/60 "2008-11-11T21:55:47Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > But the page I linked to _does_ talk about a live round, and says that one was in the rifle when the police found it in the sniper’s nest. It may simply be my screen, but the blowup you link to looks VERY cleaned up as opposed to the original photo. Magiver cast doubt on a photograph that’s been edited, and I’m just trying to conede that point to be as fair as I can; an edited photo isn’t as trustworthy as the original. But that’s neither here nor there, because even in the original photo, you cannot tell me for sure that it ISN’T a spent round; it sure looks like it could be. Since the witnesses all agreed three spent round were found, and that sure could be a spent round, the logical conclusion is that it’s a spent round. If Magiver or anyone else could definitively prove it was a fresh round, that would mean something. But they can’t. As to the round in the rifle, I don’t see the relevance of a live round in the rifle. Oswald may have worked the action after the third shot - that wouldn’t have any obvious bearing on anything else. Maybe he pumped in another round, then saw Kennedy was slumped over, and then fled the scene. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061.md?page=4)