# Questions (and some videos) regarding JFK's assasination. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061 "2008-11-10T17:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/61 "2008-11-11T22:45:59Z")
> [@Frustrated\_Wonderer](#): > > I think Oswald was under someone’s command or in some kind of group. I don’t think he just decided “Oh, I’m gonna kill JFK all by my self” in the sense of not having “support” acquaitances that motivated him to do so. I really don’t think its that crazy that someone might have payed Oswald to do this. No more than 3 or 4people need be involved. This is not an argument, but sincere book recommendations: [Oswald](http://www.amazon.com/Oswalds-Tale-American-Norman-Mailer/dp/0345404378/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226443242&sr=1-1) by Mailer, a great insight into the psychology of Oswald, which led to the shooting of the president, and of course [Case Closed](http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Harvey-Oswald-Assassination/dp/0385474466/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226443429&sr=1-1), regarding Ruby and a lot - well, almost all the things concerning the assassination you’d be interested in. Both are great books which I believe any reader with the slightest interest in the assassination would enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/62 "2008-11-12T01:50:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Try not to abuse me - you know how sensitive I can be. 😃 > However… Okay, since this is your first time I’ll try to be gentle. (I am after all a compassionate conservative. ;)) Seriously though, thanks for taking the time to look up your cites and to post your response. Most of what I know (or more accurately, believe) about Kennedy’s assassination is decades old, and given the volume of conflicting information floating around back then I’ve never really been perusaded one way or the other. My operating theory, however, has been that Oswald fired the shot that hit Connally, a shooter firing from a window at street level across the street from Oswald and to his left likely fired the bullet that caused the neck wound, and that a third shooter from an unknown vantage point ahead of Kennedy and to his right fired the head shot. Thanks to the information you posted I’m persuaded that Oswald could have fired the bullet that hit Kennedy in the neck. I just did a little experiment of my own by placing a pointer on my back at the approximate point where Kennedy was hit, and sure enough it is indeed higher than the exit wound. So, ignorance fought. Thank you. I’m less convinced by the testimony of Drs. Spitz and Olivier. I admit to having a rather busy day today and to only skimming their testimony, but what I did read wasn’t all that persuasive. They testified that entry wounds don’t cause much damage, that small arms (pistols and rifles) don’t have knock-down power, that Kennedy’s movement was almost surely neuromuscular…and besides, it might have been caused by acceleration of the vehicle. I think vehicle acceleration can be ruled out as Jackie’s body didn’t fly up and back in the same manner. Further, the car was moving slowly enough that Jackie could crawl up onto the trunk without difficulty. And the secret service agent could easily run up and climb onto it as well. All of this took place after the head shot. Secondly, it’s been my experience that reflexive motion isn’t instantaneous…that a certain period of time (usually only a fraction of a second, but noticable nonetheless) occurs between the time the stimulus is delivered and the body reacts. Yet Kennedy’s head instantly and violently changed direction at the very instant he was hit, where he went from slowly moving downward to his left and toward Jackie’s lap to up and back with his shoulder cresting the convertible’s boot. Further, his body’s movement itself doesn’t seem consistent with what one would expect from a reflexive stiffening that would move his body in that direction. It appears from the Zapruder film that his body follows his head rather than his head being propelled by body movement. In other words, it looks like his head pulled his body along with it. I would think that a reflexive stiffening of the body in an upward and to the left manner like that would result in a momentary sinking of the shoulders into the body and the limp head likely flopping to one side or the other as the body was propelled up toward it. And with regard to the way his head exploded, it seems to me that a glancing blow, just hitting Kennedy on the right side of his head, would cause much more explosive damage on entry than a straight-on shot and that this could account for the fact that his head exploded as it did had the bullet came from the front. (And of course, this brings up the question of where the shooter was located…a question for which I have no answer. :D) Now all of this is just supposition based on observation on my part, and I’m not irrevocably wedded to any of it. Frankly, I would be happier knowing that Oswald acted alone and that the guy who killed Kennedy got what was coming to him. It’s just that to me these aspects of the shooting have never seemed to add up, and my primary purpose in posting to this thread was to point out that a person can reasonably and justifiably question how Kennedy was killed without it automatically making him a wacko conspiracy theorist. So thanks again for your post, **Shodan** (and yours too, **Little Nemo**. I wasn’t aware of some of the witnesses you mention, though I have always felt that Oswald was at least one of the shooters). You’ve given me food for thought and I appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/63 "2008-11-12T05:56:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Are these not the true results? Is there a conspiracy around this, too? If you look above the statement you posted it mentioned that nobody made 2 shots on the first go. I agree it’s certainly possible but it’s not as easy as you think. I don’t know if the gun can be aimed without using the scope (while the scope is still attached) which would make it easier. He also had a tree blocking his shot so that compresses the time between the 2nd and 3rd shot. It might explain why the first shot was wild (trying to make the shot before the target would be obscured). The first shot should have been the most accurate of the 3 given that a round was already chambered and he was able to track his target for the greatest amount of time. The fact that his first shot was so off the mark adds to the premise that it was not an easy task. I hate to talk about this because I get sucked into it. The head shot doesn’t line up to the angle of the building like the 2nd shot does and the heavy jacketed bullet should have passed through his head relatively intact. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/64 "2008-11-12T06:11:40Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > There used to be a sketch-comedy show in Seattle called _Almost Live_. One bit that I remember was a game show called “Who Killed JFK Today?”, in which contestants had to answer questions about their particular theories of the Kennedy assassination. In the final round, they have to explain their theory in under 30 seconds. The champion’s theory? A tiger did it. > > That contestant was played by Bill Nye. I wish I could find the clip online somewhere. [No clip, but a transcript of that sketch.](http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy/browse_thread/thread/425d47dab13b281c) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/65 "2008-11-12T06:50:01Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > Not to mention his [bandmates](http://www.pbs.org/ktca/americanphotography/features/popups/oswald.html). Hah! What the heck is PBS doing with a photo like that?! > [@Admiral Al Calavicci](#): > > That’s why it’s so easy to believe in plots! If someone like Kennedy could be killed by one lone nut, what hope is there for the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/66 "2008-11-12T07:43:03Z")
> [@Frustrated\_Wonderer](#): > > He didn’t even get a chance to defend himself. > > It’s kinda easy to prove the Warren Commission right if Oswald didn’t really have a trial. The fact that he got killed so soon does not necesarily involve a huge net-work of people, but it does raise questions about Oswald’s associates. > > And the mystery of the grassy knowles still remains. Many people there claimed to have heard and smelled the shot from that direction. > > That’s all I’m stating for this thread. I’ve seen these debates before and they go back and forth and back and forth for way too long. There are reports and counter-reports and different data from different sources. I’m not playing the citation game. > > Things may have been as simple as stated as in the Warren Commission. I think more people were involved. I’m not sure who or what or for which purpose. You can call me crazy, hard-headed or “conspiracy theorist” lover, but I’m one who’s open for exceptions on this case. > > I’ll let you Dopers discuss this issue, that’s if anyone here has any doubts about the Reports. That’s not how stuff works around here. You’re not the one who’s “open for exceptions”. You’re the one who’s challenging the results of an in-depth investigation and subsequent generations of close scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/67 "2008-11-12T11:33:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you look above the statement you posted it mentioned that nobody made 2 shots on the first go. > [@](#): > > The first shooter to lead off the experiment was Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper. The record of his effort: 5.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / 6.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / NT (jam at 3rd cartidge)/ 5.2 sec: 1 orange, 2 low / 5.0 sec: 1 orange, 2 blue. You. Are. Wrong. The _first_ shooter got two orange on his _first_ go. Orange was a hit. He also got two orange on his _second_ go. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/68 "2008-11-12T13:34:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, since this is your first time I’ll try to be gentle. (I am after all a compassionate conservative. ;)) Thanks. Was it good for you? 😃 > [@](#): > > I think vehicle acceleration can be ruled out as Jackie’s body didn’t fly up and back in the same manner. Further, the car was moving slowly enough that Jackie could crawl up onto the trunk without difficulty. And the secret service agent could easily run up and climb onto it as well. All of this took place after the head shot. Agreed. > [@](#): > > Secondly, it’s been my experience that reflexive motion isn’t instantaneous…that a certain period of time (usually only a fraction of a second, but noticable nonetheless) occurs between the time the stimulus is delivered and the body reacts. Yet Kennedy’s head instantly and violently changed direction at the very instant he was hit, where he went from slowly moving downward to his left and toward Jackie’s lap to up and back with his shoulder cresting the convertible’s boot. My opinions on the matter are based partially on my own experience. Kennedy had a bad back. So do I. Occasionally, when I injure it, it goes into spasm. The disc in my back that usually goes out is weaker on one side than the other, thus I tend to stiffen up more in one direction (the right) than the other. And the reaction is very nearly instant - my back goes 'ping!" and it snaps into spasm and I arch up (and begin whimpering like a little girly-man). So it seems perfectly natural to me that if _I_ were subjected to a sudden shot in the neck, my back would go into spasm and I would lurch suddenly over and arch back just as Kennedy seems to have done. Sometimes I wish someone would shoot me in the head when it happens - it is quite painful. > [@](#): > > Further, his body’s movement itself doesn’t seem consistent with what one would expect from a reflexive stiffening that would move his body in that direction. It appears from the Zapruder film that his body follows his head rather than his head being propelled by body movement. In other words, it looks like his head pulled his body along with it. If keendy were shot in the neck, as is the case, I am not surprised that his neck went first into spasm and then his back. Thus the movement of his head would lead, and the rest of his body would follow. > [@](#): > > And with regard to the way his head exploded, it seems to me that a glancing blow, just hitting Kennedy on the right side of his head, would cause much more explosive damage on entry than a straight-on shot and that this could account for the fact that his head exploded as it did had the bullet came from the front. (And of course, this brings up the question of where the shooter was located…a question for which I have no answer. :D) Given the observed nature of the head wound ([cite](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm)), it seems pretty clear where and how Kennedy was hit. There is a very useful disccusion of the [X-rays](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/xray/) on the MacAdams site. Always good to talk with you. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/69 "2008-11-12T14:21:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you look above the statement you posted it mentioned that nobody made 2 shots on the first go. I agree it’s certainly possible but it’s not as easy as you think. That is, again, a total falsehood. Please refer to E-Sabbath’s quote, which also does not eliminate the possibility that some of the other shooters accomplished the same thing. Perhaps it’s harder than I think; the shot looks and sounds very easy, but I may be underestimating the effect of the tree. Nonetheless, it was quite doable, and **your characterization of the results of the CBS test was totally false.** You first claimed that “10 out of 11 couldn’t make the shot,” and that is false. You now claimed nobody made it on their first try, and THAT is false. Furthermore, the CBS test assumed the smallest estimate of Oswald’s timing (five to six seconds) which may itself be incorrect; current estimates run up to eight seconds. If so, that would make the shot quite a bit easier. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/70 "2008-11-12T14:33:41Z")
It would require Oswald getting off 3 very fast and accurate shots with a crappy rifle. It could happen. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/71 "2008-11-12T14:47:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This statement is simply a complete falsehood, if I am reading the Wikipedia entry correctly: > Are these not the true results? Is there a conspiracy around this, too? I think this is the essence of the conspiracy theories. I used to be a believer in some conspiracy theory or other until I read Posner. He didn’t have to explain anything really just point out that what the theorists said was rubbish. When I read the book I was continually thinking, “yeah, explain this point.” But all he would do was show that the theorists “evidence” was a distortion or lie about what had really happened or been said. They just state that the sun rises in the west and then ignore all the refutations. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/72 "2008-11-12T14:57:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It would require Oswald getting off 3 very fast and accurate shots with a crappy rifle. Given that he missed once, it would seem to require only two accurate shots. > [@gonzomax](#): > > It could happen. Pretty safe bet considering that it did happen. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/73 "2008-11-12T16:37:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t know if the gun can be aimed without using the scope (while the scope is still attached) which would make it easier. Yes, the iron sights could be used even with the scope attached. > [@](#): > > He also had a tree blocking his shot so that compresses the time between the 2nd and 3rd shot. It was the first shot that was interfered with by the tree. The second and third shots were in the open. > [@](#): > > The first shot should have been the most accurate of the 3 given that a round was already chambered and he was able to track his target for the greatest amount of time. Except for that tree. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/74 "2008-11-12T17:23:44Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Yes, the iron sights could be used even with the scope attached. > It was the first shot that was interfered with by the tree. The second and third shots were in the open. > > Except for that tree. If you look at the layout of the route the tree is not in the way of the first shot. The car has to slow down to make the left turn onto Commerce street giving Oswald a nice shot. He would have been able to track Kennedy all the way down Houston. The tree is offset from the intersection because of the way Commerce splits off of Elm Street so it’s really a factor in reaquiring the next 2 shots. Essentially, the first shot went wild given the downward trajectory. He should have at least hit the car. None of this explains the final head shot. With Kennedy’s head position Oswald’s line of sight would have created a bullet path exiting out the lower left side of Kennedy. And the bullet he was firing would have remained intact. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/75 "2008-11-12T18:16:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Except for that tree. Oh, great, now I have the _George of the Jungle_ song running through my head. \*Lee, Lee, Lee Harvey Oswald, shot at Kennedy. (Ahhhhaahh) Except for that tree. Lee, Lee, Lee Harvey Oswald, watch out for that (_BANG_, ooh) tree.\* Too soon? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/76 "2008-11-12T18:25:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you look at the layout of the route the tree is not in the way of the first shot. Posner speculates that the first shot missed the car entirely, because it might have been deflected off a tree limb. That could happen as the limo was heading from the open area, to where the tree would interfere. The second shot had a clear view, but you’re right that some of the lead-up time to it would have been obscured. On the other hand, it’s a live oak tree which doesn’t do a good job of blocking all the light. > [@](#): > > The tree is offset from the intersection because of the way Commerce splits off of Elm Street so it’s really a factor in reaquiring the next 2 shots. Yes, I’m familiar with the layout - I rode my bicycle over the X in the street where the fatal shot struck him, just a couple of weeks ago when I had to be downtown for jury duty. But the tree would not be a factor at all for the third shot, because the whole time from frame 224 to frame 313, the car was in the clear. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/77 "2008-11-12T18:34:17Z")
Any golfer will tell you, a tree is 90 % air. Unless your bet relies on that shot. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/78 "2008-11-12T18:35:26Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Given that he missed once, it would seem to require only two accurate shots. > > Pretty safe bet considering that it did happen. Arguing with yourself now? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/79 "2008-11-12T18:59:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve never been satisfied with the idea that Oswald fired the 3rd shot because of the trajectory of the bullet. It blew out the right side of his head which doesn’t line up with a 5th floor shot. It does line up with the left seat of the car following it which is where the agent with the AR-15 was sitting. Are you saying that a Secret Service agent armed with an AR-15 sitting a car behind the President’s shot the President in a motorcade being watched by thousands of people and _nobody in the crowd of spectators and none of his fellow agents noticed him taking aim and firing??!?_ ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061/80 "2008-11-12T19:13:02Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Are you saying that a Secret Service agent armed with an AR-15 sitting a car behind the President’s shot the President in a motorcade being watched by thousands of people and nobody in the crowd of spectators and none of his fellow agents noticed him taking aim and firing??!? I believe he’s getting it from the book _Mortal Error_ which argues that the fatal head shot was fired by a guard riding in/on a car behind the president’s, but that the shot was accidental. That makes it simultaneously more plausible and less plausible than your scenario - he didn’t have to take aim and fire, but on the other hand, _his firearm just happened to go off, and just happened to hit Kennedy right in the head?!?!?_ That’s just a staggering hypothesis, and completely unnecessary to explain what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-and-some-videos-regarding-jfks-assasination/472061.md?page=5)