# Questions for Catholics re: The Lord's Prayer **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 22, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964 "2009-02-22T17:57:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/21 "2009-02-23T02:36:08Z")
According to this summary of the [Order of the Mass](http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm), the Apostles’ Creed can be used in place of the Nicene Creed: > [@](#): > > **Profession of Faith:** > > [On Sundays and solemnities, the Nicene Creed is normally recited by everyone after the homily. The Apostles’ Creed may be used instead, esp. in celebrations of Masses with children] Is that not correct? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/22 "2009-02-23T02:45:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > According to this summary of the [Order of the Mass](http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm), the Apostles’ Creed can be used in place of the Nicene Creed: > > Is that not correct? It has been fine for just over five years. A general permission to substitute the Apostles’ Creed in place of the Nicene Creed, particluarly during Lent and the Easter Season, was included in the 2003 Roman Missal. (Prior to that, it was not the prescribed prayer, but it wouldn’t get you thrown out of the church.) ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/23 "2009-02-23T03:05:34Z")
The only problem with the Apostles’ Creed, in my experience, is that people don’t know it very well. They’re much more familar with the Nicene Creed. So when the Apostles’ Creed is substituted at mass, there’s just a lot of embarrassed mumbling. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/24 "2009-02-23T05:25:34Z")
Yeah, it’s the Nicene creed. Regardless, it was obviously a mistake by the Priest. He was fumbling his way through the entire ceremony… the entire church felt sorry for the guy. Like I said, he was _really_ young. And the line “for the kingdom…” etc was said in the churches I went to when I was a kid (70s-80s). I remember my grandmother a number of times insisting that I didn’t _have_ to say it, that it was a form of “Protestant influence” and therefore not really Catholic. …said the ex-baptist who eloped at the age of 14 to marry her 15 year-old boyfriend. Oh, well: nobody has faith like the converted. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/25 "2009-02-23T05:36:36Z")
I checked my old sheet of prayers from my CCD classes in the early 80s. The Lord’s Prayer does omit the “for thine…” line. I wish I had the precise cite, but I remember reading sometime that the version of the prayer that we were taught in CCD classes was from the Baltimore Catchetism of 1884, which was written for grade age children. Although it’s no longer the formal catchetism, that form has tended to stick around among Catholic education classes. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/26 "2009-02-23T07:34:31Z")
Most Protestant churches at the very end say “…and the glory forever. Amen.” The Anglican churches always seem to say “…and the glory forever and ever. Amen.” The Catholic churches that I’ve been to stop after “but deliver us from evil.” But I’ve not attended Catholic churches regular except for a while in college long ago. When “The Lord’s Prayer” is sung, it just has the Protestant “forever” at the end." That’s in English. I haven’t looked at the Latin version. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/27 "2009-02-23T16:08:41Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Yeah, it’s the Nicene creed. > > Regardless, it was obviously a mistake by the Priest. He was fumbling his way through the entire ceremony… the entire church felt sorry for the guy. Like I said, he was _really_ young. I was surprised to find out at my MIL’s funeral (where I was one of the lectors and also read the prayers of the faithful) that the creed, in any form, is not recited. I missed my cue, because typically the creed leads into the POF, and the priest had to give me a small hint to get up there and do my thing. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/28 "2009-02-23T19:28:50Z")
I know I am only 49 but I am generally very conservative when it comes to my Catholicism. My jaws remain clamped tight shut at the “kingdom/power/glory” response which Vatican 2 placed conveniently almost adjacent to the end of the Our Father. Some may say it’s petty, but that’s how I am. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/29 "2009-02-23T19:33:10Z")
What about “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”? Why would we have to beg Our Father Who Art in Heaven to “lead us not into temptation”? Isn’t that the devil’s job? ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/30 "2009-02-23T19:37:44Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > From the current order of mass: COMMUNION RITE > > Lord’s Prayer: > > Priest: Let us pray with confidence to the Father in the words our Savior gave us. > or Jesus taught us to call God our Father, and so we have the courage to say: > or Let us ask our Father to forgive our sins and to bring us to forgive those who sin against us. > or Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus taught us. > > All: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; > thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. > Give us this day our daily bread; > and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; > and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. > > Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ. > All: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever. This is how we do it at Mass every week, in just about every church I’ve ever attended. I’m Roman Catholic. I’m puzzled why people would leave off the last part. Who cares how it got there, the sentiment is the point, no? ---
**Author:** ![Kappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/50afbb/32.png) [@Kappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kappa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/31 "2009-02-23T19:42:55Z")
It’s funny. My wife and I were watching the new Spike Lee movie, “Miracle at St.Anna’s” yesterday. There was a scene where the priest was doing the Lord’s Prayer with his congregation (just before they were blown away) and he skipped over those lines. I thought that it was strange because I’d never heard it like that before and now, today, I read this. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/32 "2009-02-23T19:51:09Z")
I have been an athiest for some time…but was brought up Catholic. I can STILL remember it as: Our Father, who art in heaven Hallowed be thy name The Kingdom, thy will be done On Earth as it is in heaven Give us this day, our daily bread And forgive us our trespasses As we forgive those that trespass against us and please do not deliver us into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen. Now, I’m not sure how my memory is…and it is possible that is a ‘child’s version’ (as is the act of contrition I remember ) but that is how I remember it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/33 "2009-03-01T03:14:16Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > What about “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”? Why would we have to beg Our Father Who Art in Heaven to “lead us not into temptation”? Isn’t that the devil’s job? Artifact of translation. In other languages the phrase is rendered aas the equivalent of “do not let us fall into temptation”, but when it was first translated “lead us not into” had a similar sense and made better poetry. As other people have mentioned, even in formal Masses and services the doxology may or may not be part of the specific order of the day, but it’s been around all along. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/34 "2009-03-01T04:01:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **JohnT** :First of all, a nitpick, but you mean the Nicene Creed, not the Apostles’ Creed. The Apostles’ Creed is a shorter and less theologically-detailed version which is pretty much only recited as part of the Rosary (by Catholics, at least). But even at that, the Nicene Creed is sometimes replaced by the reiteration of the baptismal vows (especially if there’s a baptism at that particular mass), and I’ve known at least one priest who, for reasons of his own, chooses to omit it (I’ve never gotten around to asking him why). The Nicene Creed is not used where the Liturgy of the Word (the part of Mass preceding the Peace and Offertory) is replaced by the Liturgy for Baptism, because the Apostles’ Creed is the traditional Baptismal creed. I think that the Nicene Creed is optional at daily Low Mass and possibly specialized Masses as well. In Anglican Eucharists, which usually parallel Catholic Masses, the Nicene Creed is prescribed for Sundays and Major Feasts, optional at other times (except when the Apostles’ Creed is a part of what substitutes for the Liturgy of the Word, as in Morning Prayer+Eucharist or Sundays when Baptism is performed). The Easter Vigil, by the way, never uses the Nicene Creed, as it includes the annual renewal of vows made at Baptism (and therefore calls for the Apostles’ Creed at the pertinent place). ---
**Author:** ![jasonh300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@jasonh300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasonh300)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/35 "2009-03-01T19:26:26Z")
> [@corkboard](#): > > This is how we do it at Mass every week, in just about every church I’ve ever attended. I’m Roman Catholic. > > I’m puzzled why people would leave off the last part. Who cares how it got there, the sentiment is the point, no? When I was taught the “Our Father” in Catholic school, it ended in “deliver us from evil. Amen.”. This is how it is said outside of a Mass, or while praying the Rosary. I’ve never seen it left off during a _Mass_, even at a funeral. The “Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day…”, said by the priest, isn’t part of the Lord’s Prayer, it’s the next step in the mass, and then the “For the Kingdom, the power, etc.” is the congregation’s response to what the priest just said. This doesn’t make it any more a part of the Lord’s Prayer than the next step (“Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you…”). Prayers vary from religion to religion and a non-Catholic might hear familiar bits during different parts of the Catholic Mass, the Lord’s Prayer being the one thing that’s almost identical through all the Christian religions. There are minor changes made periodically that accommodate changes in the language. The “thine” and “thou” and “thy” have started to fade since it is archaic language (although they still teach “Our Father who **art** in heaven…”, and “ **thy** kingdom come…”. At one point when I was in grade school, I think they must’ve tried replacing those words with “are” and “your” (it was in a religion textbook), but it didn’t take, since most Catholic children know their prayers before they get into Kindergarten and they knew them the way their pre-Vatican-II parents taught them. 20+ years later, I taught my kids their prayers with the same archaic language. ---
**Author:** ![Caveat\_lector\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@Caveat\_lector\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caveat_lector_1)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/36 "2009-03-01T22:18:43Z")
> [@jasonh300](#): > > 20+ years later, I taught my kids their prayers with the same archaic language. Well it just sounds better. Modern language is sometimes good, but it can kill the beauty of things if your not careful. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964/37 "2009-03-01T23:35:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Easter Vigil, by the way, never uses the Nicene Creed, as it includes the annual renewal of vows made at Baptism (and therefore calls for the Apostles’ Creed at the pertinent place). At the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal vows takes the place of the Creed entirely. Neither the Nicene Creed nor the Apostles’ Creed is recited/sung. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics-re-the-lords-prayer/486964.md?page=1)