# Questions for Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207 "2010-05-21T02:00:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/41 "2010-05-22T05:43:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, maybe this is is an issue of ignorance. Many Catholics don’t understand that their church’s creed dooms them to eternal damnation or expulsion or both because of their beliefs or actions. You stopped practicing at 12, so it’s obvious you don’t remember, but most Catholics really don’t give a shit. From what I remember from Sunday School (which, admittedly, was 20 years ago), the church expects “good Catholics” to follow the Ten Commandments. Everything else is just gravy. And as others have said, excommunication doesn’t really happen and “You are going to Hell if you…” speeches happen even less. > [@](#): > > So let us say that the church became much more agressive in “enforcement” in the sense of _toe the line or get out_. Would this result in more people trying to behave better, or more people who go shopping for a new religion, or more people who give up religion all together. I know there is not a right answer to this, I’m just looking for some opinion of what the outcome would be. One thing’s for sure, there would be a lot more “lapsed Catholics” (the preferred term, I’ve found, for Catholics who’re still religious but don’t go to church). ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/42 "2010-05-22T05:59:10Z")
**Boyo Jim** the Catholic Church is an enormous organisation and there are no doubt views and views within it. I think that being primarily a culture, the main priority of most of the church is to be part of a big group; to spread the culture. You are getting far, far to hung up on the theology. Imagine a great big costume party. Everyone agrees that it is a “Costume Party”. The invitation said no one is allowed in without a costume. Almost everyone there is nominally in a costume although admittedly a large number of the costumes are lame and minimalist excuses for costumes. Everyone is having a great time laughing and talking and eating and drinking, and to some extent the costumes are providing a bit of social lubricant. In one corner are some costume nazis arguing ernestly with the hosts about the fact that some of the people at the party aren’t in a proper costume. One of the hosts sympathises because he’s a bit of a costume nazi himself and wishes everyone had put in more effort. The other hosts kind of have to pay lip service to what the costume nazis are saying because after all the invitation did say “no costume no entry”. But most of the hosts and 99% of the guests just wish the costume nazis would just STFU, have a drink, enjoy themselves and let everyone have a good time. If you want to read an interesting case study on precisely what happens when theology obsessives force the Catholic Church to enforce doctrine against a parish, Google “St Marys Kennedy site:au”. This is a local church where my mother in law goes when she’s staying with us, and where Mrs P goes occasionally. It’s been very interesting, and somewhat bemusing to watch the drama as a church outsider such as myself. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/43 "2010-05-22T06:46:46Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > … > You are getting far, far to hung up on the theology. … You are probably right about this. OTOH, without theolgy, what is left of religion? The impression I’m getting from these responses is that many, perhaps most, Catholics remain so because they don’t fundamentally understand what it is to _be_ Catholic. Or is it me who doesn’t understand? I’m not sure. It seem to me I have a better understanding of relationship between the church and the laity than most Catholics do, but obviously less understanding of the social nature of, or the psychological reassurance gained by, being a member. But these latter items, to me, are rather peripheral to what a religion actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/44 "2010-05-22T07:12:55Z")
IMHO they do understand and you don’t but that is understandable because what it is and what it says it is in the glossy brochure aren’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/45 "2010-05-22T17:19:11Z")
Not only did I lose my faith at around the age of 12, but I am (for reasons I won’t go into) in a state of mortal sin. However I am and always will be a Catholic. It’s not just about theology, and it’s certainly not just about dogma, which is what a lot of the teachings you refer to are. I think it’s a little arrogant for you to claim that you understand the nature of Catholicism more than most Catholics. I think they (we) understand it perfectly, and we interact with it as human beings tend to: we adapt. Sometimes ourselves, sometimes it or what it is to us. Is a Jew less Jewish if they don’t keep totally kosher? Is a Muslim not a Muslim if he hasn’t got a beard? If a Sikh takes off his turban, does he become not Sikh? You’re right when you say that you don’t understand, but I don’t think I can explain. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/46 "2010-05-22T18:41:52Z")
> [@Teacake](#): > > …Is a Jew less Jewish if they don’t keep totally kosher? Is a Muslim not a Muslim if he hasn’t got a beard? If a Sikh takes off his turban, does he become not Sikh? … Is there a central command of Jewishness or Muslimness or Sikhishness that claims the right to cast you out of the faith should you have certain beliefs or do (or don’t do) certain things? I don’t really know, but I doubt it. But, yes, if the Muslim church’s dogma says you are no longer a member of the church should you cut your beard, then you are no longer Muslim if you cut your beard. And if you have lost your faith, then why do you consider yourself in a state of mortal sin? Have you lost bits and pieces of it? So you see religion as more akin to nationality, and not membership in a club? I wonder if there is a master list of Catholics somewhere in the Vatican? Do local dioceses report their membership, births, conversion and so forth to some kind of papal census taker. Oh, yeah, I’m an arrogant guy. On edit, pretty much everyone on earth is in a state of mortal sin according to Catholic dogma, so I wouldn’t sweat it much if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/47 "2010-05-23T00:38:33Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > But, yes, if the Muslim church’s dogma says you are no longer a member of the church should you cut your beard, then you are no longer Muslim if you cut your beard. What if every Muslim you know accepts you as a Muslim anyway? Any given religion is just a bunch of stuff that people made up. If the people of that religion say that they are now going to agree that their religion now comprises a different bunch of stuff who is to say they are wrong? Who has any greater authority than the congregation itself? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/48 "2010-05-23T00:53:29Z")
I know it is just a bunch of stuff that people made up. Do most Catholics believe that? Are they all living some weird waking dream where they pretend to believe, and even give money to this collective hallucination _that they know is a hallucination_? That’s even stranger than I thought. I assumed most actually believed, or they would find a more compatible faith, or give up religion altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/49 "2010-05-23T01:24:27Z")
Boyo, here is a related thread. I had the same question as you, but regarding [church burials of obvious sinners (members of violent gangs).](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354495) In you example, the priest can avoid knowing about your sisters transgressions. But at a burial, the priest knows about the way the dead person behaved and is called to remark on it. I noticed that even then, there is so incredibly little condeming going on. So, a priest conducting a gang member burial will not publicly voice his disapproval of a known murderer, so someone who sinned against the top of the Ten freaking commandments. But that same priest will speak out against gays getting married. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/50 "2010-05-23T02:40:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I know it is just a bunch of stuff that people made up. Do most Catholics believe that? Are they all living some weird waking dream where they pretend to believe, and even give money to this collective hallucination _that they know is a hallucination_? There is a disjunct between the explicit process and the implicit process. Explicitly there is dogma and doctrine. Implicitly, what people of a given religion believe changes over time because the dogma and doctrine have wiggle room and are re-interpreted (or indeed outright ignored, see: pretty much the whole of the Old Testament) to match what people want to believe anyway. People have a tremendous capacity for self delusion. We have always been at war with Eurasia. Tomorrow, we have always been at war with Oceania. The process of change in religion is slow and to most people imperceptible. To return to the OP, the culture of Catholocism leads the way, and it drags the theology along behind it. Your sister is of the culture, and she and all like her will eventually change the formal stuff. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/51 "2010-05-23T03:15:28Z")
Below, you will find a description of what I believe is the leading religion in America: whether a person calls himself Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian or \_\_\_ (fill in your preferred denomination), I find that, if you dig a bit, he’ll end up being a Moralistic Therapeutic Deist. > **[Moralistic Therapeutic Deism--the New American Religion](https://www.christianpost.com/article/20050418/moralistic-therapeutic-deism-the-new-american-religion/)** > > When Christian Smith and his fellow researchers with the National Study of Youth and Religion at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill took a close look at the religious beliefs held by ... Most people in most religions, even the observant ones, frequently know very little about what their religions entail. To them, religion is about “being nice” and “feeling good.” They either don’t know that their religion is supposed to entail much more than that, or ignore the inconvenient parts and concentrate on the parts that make them feel good and that emphasize being nice. To Boyo Jim’s question, would the Church rather have a smaller membership that took the faith more seriously? Well… I often get the feeling that Pope Benedict would like that very much. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/52 "2010-05-23T03:29:35Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > …Most people in most religions, even the observant ones, frequently know very little about what their religions entail. To them, religion is about “being nice” and “feeling good.” They either don’t know that their religion is supposed to entail much more than that, or ignore the inconvenient parts and concentrate on the parts that make them feel good and that emphasize being nice. > … I pretty much agree with this, but it is so odd that the Catholic church in particular wants us to be fearful. Original Sin? Damnation for evil _thought_ let alone actions? Don’t Catholics know about Catholic guilt? Jeez, I probably still have vestiges of that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/53 "2010-05-23T03:32:09Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > As with most things, there are probably as many interpretations of what it means to be Catholic as there are Catholics. My take on it is this: > > What you’re looking for is the Nicene Creed. It’s recited every week at mass, after the Priest says “Let us stand, and profess our faith” > > We believe in one God, > the Father, the Almighty > maker of heaven and earth, > of all that is seen and unseen. > > We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, > the only Son of God, > eternally begotten of the Father, > God from God, Light from Light, > true God from true God, > begotten, not made, > one in Being with the Father. > Through him all things were made. > > For us men and for our salvation > he came down from heaven > by the power of the Holy Spirit > he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. > For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; > he suffered, died, and was buried. > On the third day he rose again > in fulfillment of the Scriptures; > he ascended into heaven > and is seated at the right hand of the Father. > He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, > and his kingdom will have no end. > > We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, > who proceeds from the Father and the Son. > With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. > He has spoken through the Prophets. > We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. > We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. > We look for the resurrection of the dead, > and the life of the world to come. Amen. > > That’s pretty much the bottom line. If you believe these things, and you can call yourself Catholic. If not, you can’t. Everything else is open to discussion and/or interpretation. Except the Nicene Creed is part of the faith of many non-Roman Catholic churches, such as the Anglican Communion and Lutherans. See for example, the Communion service in the [Book of Common Prayer of 1662](http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/communion/index.html). Since it’s common to so many branches of the Western Church, acceptance of the Nicene Creed is not the definition of being a Roman Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/54 "2010-05-23T11:18:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > And if you have lost your faith, then why do you consider yourself in a state of mortal sin? Have you lost bits and pieces of it? > _\_ > On edit, pretty much everyone on earth is in a state of mortal sin according to Catholic dogma, so I wouldn’t sweat it much if I were you. I don’t consider myself to be in a state of mortal sin. That’s how the Church considers me. And I don’t “sweat it” at all. It’s a little unpleasant to be rejected, but as with so many of the things people do in the name of the Church, it might be toeing some strict Catholic line, but it’s not very Christian behaviour. I ignore it. By losing my faith, I mean that in the Catholic sense: I no longer have the belief in God that I had as a child. I don’t mean that I lost my Catholicism. As I said before, I don’t think you can lose that. Yes, I would say that it’s more like a nationality - in fact very much like, in that e.g. I’m British, and will always be British, no matter what passport I carry or how long I spend living elsewhere or how many other languages I learn. Even if I left here today and never came back, I would always be British. ---
**Author:** ![Creole\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@Creole\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creole_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207/55 "2010-05-23T14:22:16Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Catholicism is a cultural group to which people and their friends and family belong. Their connection to that culture is important because many people like to feel they belong to a particular group, and because their friends and family belong to it also. The theological stuff is unimportant, except insofar as it: > > 1/ comprises meaningless ritual practices and words, knowledge of and participation in which marks one as a member of the group (like the Nicene Creed); and/or > > 2/ reinforces and is compatible with the existing morality of the group. > > And when I say “the group” here I don’t mean all Catholics, or the old celibate guys in Rome, I mean the group of Catholics that any given people connects with through their Catholicism. > [@Perciful](#): > > Once a Catholic always a Catholic. It is the same for Jews. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Catholicism, much like Judaism, is a very strong cultural anchor in society and a very large number of former Catholics still consider themselves to be "Catholic,"even when not practicing. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I know it is just a bunch of stuff that people made up. Do most Catholics believe that? Are they all living some weird waking dream where they pretend to believe, and even give money to this collective hallucination _that they know is a hallucination_? > > That’s even stranger than I thought. I assumed most actually believed, or they would find a more compatible faith, or give up religion altogether. I’m atheist, and have been since my early teens. I think the idea of religion is complete bullshit, and I don’t have much patience with the pious. I don’t pretend to believe or give money, and I am not part of a collective hallucination (well, I was once, okay–but that was in college, and completely unrelated to this topic.) Still, I identify with the Catholic church. I’m Catholic insofar as my _cultural_ identity is Catholic. My family has practiced Catholicism for centuries. To say that it’s not a part of who I am would be like denying my French roots. For many of us, it isn’t really about dogma. I don’t go to Mass (unless I absolutely must for some family event, like a Christening, funeral or wedding) and I generally wince at most Church news. But there will always be a part of me that feels a tug when I step into a Cathedral, and I still get chills when the pipe organ is in its grandeur. It’s familiar and part of my heritage. When I have reason to go to St. Louis Cathedral here in New Orleans, I light a candle in memory of my ancestors, who have worshipped on that site for nearly three hundred years. Not because I believe their souls will somehow benefit, but mostly as a tribute to their lives and a sense of history. So perhaps for your sister it isn’t about what she believes or whether or not she sees herself as fulfilling Catholic dogma. Perhaps her identification as Catholic is more personal than spiritual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-catholics/540207.md?page=2)