# Questions for CCW permit holders **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 23, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420 "2018-02-23T17:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/21 "2018-02-23T21:30:31Z")
Oregon (still) has open carry, especially if rural. Most things I’ve heard from hunting guides in bear country (and not black bear) say bear spray is better than a firearm. It is problematic though e.g. can’t bring on planes, easier to break and spray yourself etc. On the other hand, I have walked right up on a Mountain lion in wilderness. It took off immediately, but I don’t think a firearm is a bad idea in the wild. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/22 "2018-02-23T21:48:19Z")
Was taught about weapons ( guns ) starting from before I can really remember by my Father and his friends. (WWII veterans) Always all guns in the house were loaded always. 7 children born from 1941 to 1954. Been carrying concealed since the summer of 1957. ARMY 61 to 64 Had at least 3 weapons since I was about 12, pistol, rifle, shotgun. Got my first CCW in 1998. Moved to Arkansas which is a constitutional carry state but have a CCW for travel reasons. I am now probably not as good a marksman as I was in my 50’s & 60’s but my judgement is still as good. From what the news & social media shows about LEO’s shooting chagrined dogs, unarmed citizens in ‘wrong address, no knock raids’ and have been on the wrong end of a terrified LEO’s weapon getting conflicting orders as fast as he could scream; yeah, I am better trained than those. All the other good LEO’s are better than me in most/certain kinds of situations. So; Physical weapon handling, I am slightly above avg. Knowing the legal stuff about my rights, pretty well up there. Knowing all the legal stuff a LEO is supposed to know, well below avg. Knowing when to ‘Hold em & when to fold em’ or ‘;When to pull it or run/hide,’ I am above avg. I have the hours of practice with my weapons needed plus have the training to never depend on habit to save me or you, always mentally/situational aware. It is like being a pilot, good habits and not being distracted from flying the aircraft. People who forget they are carrying a weapon are as scary to me as average bad guys. Meth heads are the worst IMO. So, all in all, about average compared to the LEO as a total group and way above the average citizen. I leave the in-service. A team green beanies, seals, rangers, & the like out of my calculations. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/23 "2018-02-23T21:57:28Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > On the other hand, your average LEO is likely better trained than the average bear on “tactical” skills. But again, this is something a lot of people get wrong: a CCW is for **self defense** (or including family). It does not and should not deputize you as a reserve police officer. Are you saying that average bears do have some tactical skills? Did you see this, **Lancia**?! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/24 "2018-02-23T21:59:56Z")
Some people hip carry, some AIWB. Bears do Pic-a-nic basket carry. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/25 "2018-02-23T23:58:24Z")
Since I’m pretty sure I’m the “Another poster” referenced in the OP, I feel I ought to respond: Personally I have sat through Utah’s CCW permit class about a dozen times, first for myself, and then accompanying others or assisting a trio of instructors I know quite well. In the last 10 years, I’ve probably accumulated ~1,000 hours of range time, along a spectrum from very focused personal training to very casual Saturday shooting with friends / family. I’ve participated in a number of UDPL and 3-gun shooting competitions and have a very modest amount tactical training in informal or semi-formal settings. And to share one cop’s perspective: > [@](#): > > [I think the people that are out there who do carry concealed right now are at least as proficient with their weapons as police officers are. Actually, my deputies have to qualify with their pistols twice a year and for many of them that’s all the shooting they do; whereas, people who chose to carry are typically into guns, so they shoot more and are probably even better with their weapons than most cops are.](http://havokjournal.com/nation/the-average-civilian-pistol-permit-holder-is-a-better-shot-than-most-cops/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/26 "2018-02-24T01:33:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Since I’m pretty sure I’m the “Another poster” referenced in the OP, I feel I ought to respond: > > Personally I have sat through Utah’s CCW permit class about a dozen times, first for myself, and then accompanying others or assisting a trio of instructors I know quite well. In the last 10 years, I’ve probably accumulated ~1,000 hours of range time, along a spectrum from very focused personal training to very casual Saturday shooting with friends / family. I’ve participated in a number of UDPL and 3-gun shooting competitions and have a very modest amount tactical training in informal or semi-formal settings. > > And to share one cop’s perspective: I didn’t mention your name for the very reason that I would rather not continue that discussion in this thread. That is also the reason I didn’t start this thread in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/27 "2018-02-24T02:37:02Z")
so there ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@Troy\_McClure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/28 "2018-02-24T03:42:03Z")
I took a 4 hour classroom class, with no range time requirement. However, I belong to a shooting club so I maybe practice 4-6 hours a month (mix of handgun and rifle). But the club is outdoors and the management is very paranoid about people shooting over the berm or baffles, so rapid fire and firing from a draw is forbidden. On the rifle range we are only allowed to shoot from a bench rest. So I would say most of my shooting is not a realistic simulation of what a police officer would need to do. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/29 "2018-02-24T03:44:25Z")
We have to qualify twice a year with pistol and shotgun. 4 times a year if you carry a rifle on duty. Someone who is not a cop and who likes to put thousands of rounds in targets a year could easily be more proficient with a weapon. I have never heard of any state where the minimum standard for CCW is anywhere near what police training is. Those that have extensive training are doing it on their own. Being able to shoot is just a small part. I could teach just about anyone to shoot reasonably well in a short amount of time. The real training is dealing with people and knowing when to use force. It’s walking up to cars not knowing if there is danger. It’s going on 911 hang up calls knowing officers have recently been ambushed on seemingly innocent calls. It’s going on thousands of calls in a career and knowing any of them can go really bad. It’s also knowing that one bad split second decision out of thousands could at best mean the end of your career or at worst ending your life or someone else’s. The training doesn’t stop at the academy. It happens on every call that makes your experience deeper. You should be learning all the time. Getting your CCW does not do that for you. As someone who was in the Army a long time I can say being in the military doesn’t do that for you either. (There are some overlap in skills between the military and police but they are not the same.) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/30 "2018-02-24T05:54:51Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I’ve had 2 states for less than a year so not very long to be considered an expert. I don’t carry regularly as my job doesn’t allow it by statute. But I would rather have it legally available to me if I needed it that to have gone through that and not need it. 8 hour course with live fire. Renewal is 4 hours with live fire but they don’t have to take it again. Utah was “only” 10 minutes, but that is because you can use the overlapping material to qualify for both; their section mainly covered state specific laws (like they have campus carry we don’t). Aside from the “basics,” there was also a strong emphasis in that carrying only increases your responsibility and need to deescalate situations. In other words, people who are carrying have a greater responsible to not be testosterone filled assholes. > > I also qualified for Oregon, but they require you to make the trip so I haven’t done any paperwork. I’ve considered it as I have family there, but the counties they live in are unfriendly to CCW and/or don’t have the resources to offer out of state people a face-to-face. > > “Training” should be construed as an ongoing thing. Skills need practice. As far as actual shooting skills, many police aren’t “gun guys” and only qualify the bare minimum 1x per year, and in most department the requirements are not very stringent. I shoot when I can but more than the typical police training requirements. > > On the other hand, your average LEO is likely better trained than the average bear on “tactical” skills. But again, this is something a lot of people get wrong: a CCW is for **self defense** (or including family). It does not and should not deputize you as a reserve police officer. In my class, that was emphasized. While my state allows “defense of self or others,” we were cautioned heavily against really running into an unknown situation. You see a clearly uneven altercation, and want to defend the one getting a beat down? What if the current winner is a cop taking down a suspect who is making it difficult ? What if that fight is not the situation you thought it was? We are not deputies, we are people who have been educated on the basics of the law, and shown proficiency with our weapon of choice. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420/31 "2018-02-24T07:46:07Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > In my class, that was emphasized. While my state allows “defense of self or others,” we were cautioned heavily against really running into an unknown situation. You see a clearly uneven altercation, and want to defend the one getting a beat down? What if the current winner is a cop taking down a suspect who is making it difficult ? What if that fight is not the situation you thought it was? We are not deputies, we are people who have been educated on the basics of the law, and shown proficiency with our weapon of choice. Yeah. And there were a few scenarios where it was, “an objective, reasonable person might think you were in the right. But would a jury?” I wasn’t very impressed by my instructor in many ways, but that part was covered well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-ccw-permit-holders/809420.md?page=1)