Questions for former fundamentalist Christians

Great Debates
21

No, no. I was addressing the misperception that all “fundamentalists” want to bring religion into the schools. (At least some fundamentalists are very much opposed to that.) I wasn’t saying that anyone in this thread had suggested bringing religion into public schools.

It always sort of bugs me to see dozens of Protestant denominations painted with the very broad brush of “fundy,” when in fact those denominations (and the individuals who comprise them) are not all of one mind, either on religion or politics. I was just taking that pet peeve out for a spin.

22

What got you thinking and caused you to re-evaluate this?

When I was younger I remember reading the stories of people who had faith and this power that would protect them for simply believing. In particular the story about the men of faith that were put into the fiery oven, and came out unharmed. I also paid particular attention to Mark 16. Wow, now that truly is men of faith! Those that can pick up poisonous snakes, and can drink poisons, and no harm will come upon them simply because they believe. Later in my life, I learned that the latter part was an interpolation that wasn’t even in the older translations, and this caused me to thinking about other translations, and reading more throughout my life, fully realizing that all of the Bibles had thousands of serious problems with just getting the text right copying from one translation to the other. Also every Church has yet another interpretation for every scripture. It could go unto infinity. In fact, over 35,000 different Protestant sects of Christianity exist alone today. Now that‘s a lot of different roads that lead to Heaven. I was raised in the Church of Christ from the ages of 11-16, in a North Texas town of 100,000, and at times, I sort of felt what it was like to believe, but reading the Bible for myself was the biggest reason for me to never ever fully grasp the faith. I’m now in my mid-forties. To this day, I don’t understand how it can work its magic on grown adults or even children. Our Church only consisted of about 130. Unlike other Churches of Christ, I don’t feel like our congregation thought that we were the only ones going to heaven. Although a few other Churches of Christ in my area thought that. It was interesting when one preacher left for another town. We had preacher try outs. Probably the biggest highlight of my whole stay there. Most were the typical fire and brimstone preachers, I usually got tickled with their performance. Our Church kind of got tired of Hell though, so we settled on a preacher who was more laid back, and would tell jokes at the beginning of each sermon. That would hold my attention for about two minutes, before generally I would take my usual afternoon nap. I had two brothers, one older, and one younger. Both were baptized before me. This made me feel uncomfortable, especially when the communion plate was passed, because I never could partake unless I was baptized and here I was at the age of 16 still passing the plate. It was very embarrassing, and I still remember a few of the stares I got from others, this one Elder in particular. I was becoming more introverted and isolated, and it was now starting to cause me some emotional problems. But I wasn’t going to be baptized until I truly had the faith. That day never came. I did try to believe so much though. I spent more time reading and studying the Bible than probably 98% of the members of the Church. And the more I read, the less I believed. For some reason, my dad pulled us all of out the Church when I was 16, and they and I have never been back with the exception of my older brother who still attends another Church. They never explained why to this day, and we don’t ask. My dad was a Deacon. That day we left was one of the happiest days of my life. Free at last…free at last…

What was the process?

Besides the above, I remember one Sunday school teacher who taught that just because we can’t see God doesn’t mean that he wasn’t there. I’m thinking great, she’s going to explain why. She asked all of us if we can see the wind? “Well, there ya go.” What a letdown. I remember thinking I can feel the wind, see what it does to the trees and grass, and we can even measure its effects. Another Sunday school class that stood out with me was when the preacher who was also teaching the teenage Sunday school class, taught us that the earth and stars were about 6,000 years old. Typical nonsense like this on a regular basis was the process. And if I wanted more, there was a Bible always around. Throughout my twenties and until now, reading James Randi, Robert Ingersoll, Bertrand Russell, E.Haldeman Julius, Joseph Wheless, Mark Twain, Thomas Paine, and so many more, have also been a big help and was a part of the process later on in my life.

What do you, or for that matter any Doper, think might be a way (or ways) to reach the rest of FC movement? Is it possible to neutralize the effects of F. Christianity on the rest of society?

Judging from this board, have them join the Church of Christ.

JZ

23

I can’t believe that posted three times. I got an error message every time I tried to post, which has always previously indicated my post didn’t go through. Sorry about that.

And spoke–it’s cool, I was just clarifying. FWIW, I don’t think fundies are especially protestant. I know at least one rabidly fundamentalist Catholic, and most of the FC I’ve met are completely non-denominational.

:slight_smile:

24

The music in the church I grew up in was, like spoke- all shaped-note singing. Done properly, it’s great–kinda like the white version of sprituals. I’ve heard it done well in a CofC once, and that was at a big multi-congregational singing. There was also a group in Memphis called Professor Elixer’s Southern Trubadors that did old country and bluegrass songs and would perform a set of old shaped-note songs. An friend of mine was the leader of the group and I got up and sang a couple of songs with them one night. Or tried to sing. I was drunk and forgot the words! There were about ten to fifteen people on stage and they could actually sing and do harmonies properly. It was neat to hear all of those songs that I’d sang all my life done correctly, because the music at my church SUCKED. No one knew how to read music, and since there was no piano or organ to show them the harmony lines and no choir or choir leader who practiced together, all anybody had to go on was the memory of how their parents or grandparents had sung the songs. Thus, we get a hundred or so people feebly bleating a half-remembered melody. I brought a girlfriend home once from college who sang in the chorus with me and had to physically restrain her from walking out during the singing. Her first words to my mother after the service were “Nobody was singing anything that was on the page!”

I really can’t emphasize enough what a negative experience church was to me growing up. I still have a lot of anger about it that I work constantly to deal with. My lack of belief is a big wedge between me and my family. I have moved away from them but still go back for visits several times a year. If my visit happens to include a Sunday morning, Sunday night, or Wednesday night I will still go to church with them. I do it for my mother, who would be embarassed in front of her community if I didn’t attend while I was in town. I know she and the rest of the family won’t (not can’t, mind you, won’t) meet me halfway on this. I consider the battle over, and I have won, therefore I must be the grown up and tolerate what I hate for my mother’s sake. As screwed up as she is and as her religion is, I love her because she’s my mother and I must do right by her. Of course, when she comes to visit me, I do not attend church.

Susma, 99% of all CofC people I have ever met really believe that their church descended directly from the first century chuch of Peter (but he wasn’t Pope! Oh no!) and Paul. Seriously. They have no sense that Martin Luther had anything to do with the way they worship or what they believe.

spoke- is right on the church in school issue, too. CofC hates the Baptists. People don’t believe me when I tell them that I was raised to believe that the Baptists are a bunch of liberals.

25

I really think fundamentalism is dying a slow death.

Fundamentalism thrives on ignorance. That ignorance must be maintained or fundamentalism founders. (Which explains the desperate efforts of some fundamentalists to keep evolution out of the classroom.)

With the advent of cable TV, then satellite TV, and then the internet, it has become virtually impossible to keep people ignorant. The internet gives even rural families access to sites like this, and you can’t scroll through the TV menu on any given week without finding programs on anthropology, comparative religion, evolution, etc.

I believe fundamentalism will wither away. The spasm of political activism you’ve seen from fundamentalists in the past 20 years or so are what amounts to the death throes of that worldview-- a last desperate attempt to keep science and learning at bay.

26

You seem to equate fundimentalists (which really should be bible literalists) and evangelicals which are two different aspects of religion. One can be evangelical without forcing a belief in a 6-day, 144 hour creation of the world. I am a member of a congregation of the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, a decidedly non-fundy bunch and far too liberal for the likes of Jack Chick or Satan spawn Fred Phelps.

We are also a reconciling in Christ congregation which means we welcome and embrace anyone regardless of among other factors sexual orientaiton, martial status or gender identity. We believe in full inclusion which means we sometimes get our sermon from a lesbian pastor and I often give communion to the many gay and lesbian couples in our church family when I assist with services. We don’t try to “fix” people by trying to change their sexual orientation to fit a misunderstanding of the bible because they aren’t broken.

My own religious background spans everything from Roman Catholic catechism to Assembly of God and Southern Bapsits. I am absolutely not a fundy by most definitions but that is all a matter of how you read the bible.

Matthew 22:35-39

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ "

27

I think it’s just a regional thing. Here, the two are interchangable to your average person, even average fundies. I meant no disrespect to your Lutheran church, and I doubt any Lutherans (evangelical or otherwise) locally would take issue with the term.

28

I was trained as a Jehovah’s Witness. I will never say a bad word about them as indivuduals and what they are doing to better themselves and their lives, and will defend them. However, I think the main Watchtower office betrayed their beliefs and their sacrifices somewhat (their own cover-up molestation scandal, their waffling on blood transfusions, despite my belief that they are too unsafe, etc.). Also, I think they missed opportunities to mainstream themselves without compromising their principles.

spoke, you are wrong. Bad Scientific interpretation and implemenation can betray people just as bad religious interpretation and implementation can and have done, with possibly more disatrous consenquences. Then the pendulum swings back to fundamentalism again.

29

**

What got you thinking and caused you to re-evaluate this?**
I still consider myself a Fundie Christian - but that’s only because someone has to put a title to my Christianity. I don’t consider myself to be grouped in the “Fundie Christians” of the world nor do I act like them (although I used too a little bit ;)).

What was the process?

I give the full 110% credit to the SDMB.
**What do you, or for that matter any Doper, think might be a way (or ways) to reach the rest of FC movement? Is it possible to neutralize the effects of F. Christianity on the rest of society? **

I read a lot of “live and let live” in that Pit thread so I have to say the same to this question. I’ve learned the best advice is given only to those who ask for it :slight_smile:

30

I really liked most of what you had to say about ELCA. (My wife and I attended Tygr and Jklayla’s ELCA church once, and would go there if we hadn’t found our own church first.)

But earlier this week in another religion thread here in GD, I answered Susma Rio Sep’s question about the groups that Christian denominations fell into by noting that the term “Evangelical” has two distinct and almost contradictory meanings – it’s used by Lutherans as nearly synonymous with “in the Lutheran tradition,” and it’s used by conservatives whose emphases are on the get-out-there-and-evangelize-and-convert-them/we’ll-worry-about-what-to-do-with-them-later siort of witnessing and revivals and being “Bible-believing” Christians for whom, and unfortunately I am not exaggerating, our Lord’s Summary of the Law is of no more importance than “Thou shalt not sleep with man as with woman” or “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Some but not all of the latter variety of evangelical are inerrant literalists who hold to the Five Fundamentals. (I might also note that some who describe themselves as “evangelical” in this sense do so because they take seriously the Great Commission, but also focus on the model of Crhistian behavior baed on the Summary of the Law and what is suggested in Philippians and I John – I do not wish to tar them all with the brush wielded by many of them!)

31

Background: I wasn’t raised in church. I only started to attend around age 12 - 13 after my maternal grandfather died and apparently, scared my mother into action. Once there, we attended a non-denominational, literalist, charismatic church. I suppose it would be close to Pentecostal, without the admonitions to not wear pants, jewelry or cut your hair. I got saved (repeatedly, because I was afraid they never “took”) while in junior high. We pretty much lived there whenever the doors were open and I was your typical fundie… didn’t swear, listen to secular music, wanted only Christian leadership for our country and thought abortion was evil. All up until I was about 21. Guess that covers that. Oh, except for where I am now… I’m just a self-described believer in a God of absolute love who’s just a little removed from all this, but still accessible in a vague spiritual sense. Comforting, but remote. Gah, that sounds lame, but it’s the truth as I know it. :slight_smile:

What got you thinking and caused you to re-evaluate this?

While in my early teens, I began to wonder just why women weren’t allowed to do the same thing as men. Much like what FisherQueen felt, it just didn’t make much sense. And having grown up around strong women, I certainly wasn’t about to do any of that deferring to the head of the household bit. If it wasn’t an equal partnership, no matter what they said, I wasn’t interested.

Furthermore, I couldn’t reconcile how what they taught that the bible said literally translated to everyone else. So a child past the “age of reason”, if unsaved, automatically went to hell. Anyone who didn’t specifically repent a certain way (read “our way”) appeared doomed. Mother Theresa? The Pope? Gandhi? It began to boggle my mind.

Add to all that what seemed to be everyone’s biggest motivator… hell fire and eternal damnation. One would think since God didn’t want automatons, that He’d rather prefer those who sought him out because they wanted to, rather than out of fear. The fear thing might have been the biggest clincher.
What was the process?

Lots and lots of secular reading. A World Civilization class that highlighted the gospel story in other cultures LONG before it became synonymous with Christianity. The idea that other religions and doctrines felt just as sure, just as strong and just as right as we did. How could we all be correct at the exclusion of each other? I had never worried before that the RC version of how I should live my life was right, but what if they were? Than, again, I’d be damned. And since I totally dismissed everything outside of what I was taught to believe, that was a lot I could be missing.

But mostly, it was beginning to view the bible as something other than inerrant. If it was just inspired, than there was a lot of room for interpretation and not everything preached at me was necessarily on the money. Gay people may have been born that way after all! Women weren’t chattel! And on and on. I got a lot of what other’s said about translations and human fallacy and prejudice. Finally. So it changed my whole way of thinking, which was like turning around my fundamental make-up. Very hard, but worth the intermittent loss of faith and rediscovery of something more real and precious.
What do you think might be a way (or ways) to reach the rest of FC movement?

As already mentioned, education is the only answer. And I would argue that the most important aspect of that is teaching that the bible is inspired but not perfect. I think that is the BIGGEST hurdle facing fundamentalists of that stripe. Because until they can view their spirituality through their morals versus a dictate they can’t deviate from, it’ll be hard for them to understand even where anyone else is coming from, let alone understand (or tolerate) other possibilities.
Is it possible to neutralize the effects of F. Christianity on the rest of society?

Only with time, enlightenment and perseverance to teach. One can hope and pray. :wink:

32

Shodan:

I had the impression that you were a Roman Catholic with the fervor and loyalty of Fundamentalists; because you appeared to take great offense to my rephrasing of a report from Kalhoun on 60 (Sixty) Minutes regarding married priests.

Anyway, to satisfy my curiosity, what is your denominational affiliation at present? On my part, I consider myself a postgraduate Catholic – to the exasperation of some here, namely, my mentioning this fact time and again.

In my own observation, there are Catholics who are no different in their Catholicism from Fundamentalists, when it comes to uncompromising fervor and strict adherence to what they consider to be indispensable tenets of the Catholic Church. They are so strict with their Catholicism that they even centrifuged out of the Vatican Pope, in effect excommunicating the Pope. Now, that is outpoping the Pope. Ha ha ha. (OK, I take that “Ha ha ha” back, if you should be miffed by it.)

How did I become a postgraduate Catholic? – since people here are talking about how they left Fundamentalist allegiance – it comes from too much reading and too much open-minded attitude, and too much close acquaintance with very intelligent and learned ecclesiastics in Catholic academic circles.

Too much? Too much enough to eventually leave me an indifferent Catholic. But I think I am a saved Catholic, because I had done the Sacred Heart Devotion many times over. Jesus promised that those who have performed the devotion will not die without the last sacraments: Penance, Extreme Unction, and Holy Communion. But some smart theologians remind us that the promise is about not dying without these sacraments, but not that the reception would be fruitful. Ha ha ha.

If you study carefully Catholic intellectuals, especially those with very good foundations in Catholic learning, you might just come to the conclusion that they are also postgraduate Catholics. No, of course not, I am not projecting myself as an intellectual Catholic. Quite the contrary, many times people here have to correct me on my knowledge of Catholic doctrines. But then who really know the teachings of the Catholic Church? Which are the really infallibly defined ones? and which are not absolutely beyond questioning even to the extent of challenging the Pope’s explicit utterances.

Am I justifying my own so-called postgraduate Catholicism, on the grounds that I had so much and so close acquaintance with Catholic academicians? Maybe that’s the genuine reason.

Susma Rio Sep

33

For me it was doing volunteer work as a requirement for Psychology class in college. We were required to volunteer at least 6 hours and were to keep a log of our experiences as well as get signatures of the person who is in charge and the hours we worked.

This was an easy A for me because if we did more than 36 hours it was an automatic one grade up from where ever you stood.

We were given a list of organizations to volunteer for…since I was in Monterey I volunteer for the organization that was closest to me. For me it was an AIDS organization. My idea at first was to go into this organization to witness to the people, but instead I came out with a different attitude.

Not only did i meet other people from all walks of life, but people of all religious denominations. Among those I worked closely with was a Catholic priest.

To make a long story short…I just realized that we’re all the same we have the same goals, the same wants, and believe in one GOD. We all just have different ways of doing it.

In short, GOD loves us all, all he asks is that we take care of each other.

Looking back, i was very judgemental and evil in my actions, although i didn’t know it until I started doing volunteer work. I’m still with the organization to this day, 4 years afterwards.

34

What I notice about a lot of posters here, who are from Christian background to say the least, is their seeming indifference - is that the word? - About the ‘truths’ and the ‘taboo’ teachings/observances of a religion or church or whatever religious group; yet on the other hand their factual adherence to their particular church or religion or whatever religious group, to the extent of being apologists even polemicists of their affiliated tie-up.

Pardon me for talking about myself, the most I am is an optional theist; although I am also a Catholic, but a postgraduate one - that self-designated label again. What am I really? Honestly, I accept everything that is good for mankind in religion, and reject everything bad for mankind in religion.

Belief in God is good, but take extreme care with the personas man puts God into. Jesus is OK, Buddha is OK, Mohammed, not so much, because he told his disciples to proselytize by war (but I really don’t know as much about Mohammed and Islam as I know about Catholicism and Christian churches; so I will take that last one back).

I think the thing I abhor most are peoples who hate other peoples from religious grounds. And then religious leaders, who live the lifestyle of the rich and the famous, like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, etc. There is something different in this respect between religious leaders of the kind of Billy Graham and Pat Robertson on one side and the Pope in Rome on the other.

The Pope does not seem in his person to be as worldly as Billy and Pat. That’s my impression. And Jesus tells His disciples to go about without shoes and money and only one change of clothing, and to wait for the mansion in His Father’s home. What about yours?

Coming back to my observation about people being indifferent about dogmas and morals in a religion and yet acting as apologists and even polemicists for their personal religious affiliation, my question to these people is that shouldn’t they be also emotionally indifferent and not assume roles of apologists or much less polemicists for the religious affiliation they do choose to belong to. “Choose” is the exact correct word; but then it also brings up a difficulty for me in understanding these people. Let me explain.

I don’t know about other religions, however in Christianity we are dealing with heaven and hell, or at least in getting one’s eternal destiny for weal or for woe decided, by how and what one believes in and does for these beliefs during this earthly sojourn.

On this basis, are Christians not supposed to be logically very occupied and preoccupied with dogmas and observances? Yet, we see people here talking about which church to change to in order to have a better feeling or sense of belonging or what have you.

The Catholic faith I know teaches that dogmas and observances of religion, at least the one which the Catholic faith is, are as crucial as are right medicines and medical treatments for getting well and staying alive. And that is the idea I have of other Christian churches which hold to some very indispensable beliefs and observances. So, people who are adherents of this or that church do not seem to have chosen correctly if they did so on the basis of feeling good or experience of belonging.

Now, this is what I expect people who are indifferent to truths and observances in religion and at the same time are adherents of a particular church, that they do not act as apologists much less as polemicists for their church or religious affiliation. The most they might logically do is just to explain what their religious affiliated body teaches and practices in fact.

In my own case, owing to my pretended better knowledge of Catholicism, that’s what I do; and you will notice that I very often also add a “hahaha” to my explanation of what I claim to know about the in fact teachings of the Catholic Church (hahaha). What I mean is that people who are indifferent to truths and observances of religion in their – shall I use the word – academic stances, should be emotionally logical and consider their own religious affiliation as also no different from hairdo, fashion, and cuisine.

Maybe some people here will ask me if I can point out anyone here who is a paradigm of what I am talking about; in which case, I will mention our good learned and devout Christian brother, a professed Anglican: May I present to you, Polycarp. Ha Ha Ha. No. But Polycarp is not that shrilly vocal apologist and polemicist as with some others. He is the perfect gentleman scholar but devout Anglican Christian as Christians should be. And he will unravel my difficulties for my own benefit if nothing else.

What’s going to happen to religion if everyone is going to be like Susma? A comic satirical cynic. Maybe then we will have a truly healthy religion as with the religion of that pastor of a Lutheran church in Denmark, who openly said he does not believe in practically anything Christian; yet his congregation wants him to continue. Am I giving too much credit to myself and my own brand of Christianity or religion. You tell me.

Susma Rio Sep

35

Well, coming from a different point of view. I was raised in the church, and left when I got kicked out of my house at 18. I wasn’t to set foot in a church again unless it was a special occasion. To me, if you asked if I was a Christian, I would have said no. I understood there was a difference between someone who went to church and did all the right things for all the wrong reasons, and someone who was “Chrsitain”. Went I actually met with God many years later, it changed my life. That said, I have to laugh when I hear ignorance is bliss, cause if that was true, why aren’t more people happy? There was mention of creation vs evolution, and how evolution proves creation wrong. Now which theory of evolution proves creation wrong, cause there are about four different theories, that not only prove each different one wrong, but creation wrong as well. So to say the theory of evolution is more plausable in your mind, that’s one thing, but that too is probably based on a lack of understanding as to the theories of evolution. As for ignorance, you can find ignorance anywhere, but that doesn’t prove or disprove a point.

As for getting rid of Christianity, why would you want to? You don’t want others to love their neighbours as themself? You would rather we all look out for ourself? “Christianity only promotes violence” or “All wars are because of religion” are cop outs, as anyone who’s read the Bible knows what it says about war, as well as what it says about killing in God’s name. I would also say that anyone who went to a church for 10 years and didn’t ever talk to God or know Him was not a Christian, more a religious person. Religion will not get you to heaven, in that I can agree, it’s through a relationship. I feel sorry for anyone who didn’t meet Jesus in any church they went to, but you can’t be a Christian without Christ.