# Questions for John (Roberts, candidate for Supreme Court Justice) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115 "2005-07-25T21:22:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/1 "2005-07-25T21:22:02Z")
Do you hold it to be a self-evident truth, that all are endowed with the Rights of Life, Liberty & Pursuit? If you are called to judge, will you do your best to secure these rights for each? If not, why not? Peace Only Through Liberty rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/2 "2005-07-25T22:27:35Z")
John who? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/3 "2005-07-25T22:42:49Z")
John Roberts? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/4 "2005-07-25T22:45:10Z")
Until someone named John (especially one that might someday be called Supreme Judge) answers, maybe you can answer this question: If you were being tried, would you want your judge to answer to Justice or Law? In the Spirit rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/5 "2005-07-25T22:52:06Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Until someone named John (especially one that might someday be called Supreme Judge) answers, maybe you can answer this question: If you were being tried, would you want your judge to answer to Justice or Law? Not at all the same thing you asked in the OP, but for my part, I’ll take the law over justice. It might not be right, it might not be “fair,” but at least it ain’t entirely arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/6 "2005-07-25T22:52:36Z")
I don’t think anyone named John is going to be a Supreme Judge. A Justice of the Supreme Court, maybe… but not Supreme Judge. In any event, I’m sure you are aware the the Decleration of Independence (from which you ask your question) is _not_ a legal document in the sense that we derive laws from it (as we do the Constitution). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/7 "2005-07-25T22:54:08Z")
If I were being tried, i imagine I’d want to be declared innocent, wether I deserved it or not. So, whichever of law or justice would result in my exoneration, I’d want to go with. If you’re rather an abstract perspective, I’d want law and justice to be somewhat correlate with one another. Ideally, laws should be just. In which case there would be no meaningful distinction to choose between. What were you trying to debate again? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/8 "2005-07-25T23:02:59Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > …endowed with the Rights of Life, Liberty & Pursuit BTW, pursuit of what, exactly? Hot women? Franklin Mint collectables? I don’t think any of these are codified rights. A Justice of SCOTUS wouldn’t be bound to uphold any “right of Liberty” (??), but only to uphold the more codified rights laid out in the US Constitution. If there’s a particular right you’re worried about there, why don’t you bring that to our attention? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/9 "2005-07-25T23:13:07Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > John Roberts? Whew!! For a minute there I was thinking I was being put on the spot with a trick question… 🙂 **rjefferson** : What the hell are you getting at? “All” what? Are you leading us into a trap where you’re going to claim that a fetus is covered by that term? BTW, your quote is from the Declaration of Independence. SC justices don’t swear to uphold the DoI. They swear to uphold the Constution. Do you know the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/10 "2005-07-25T23:15:11Z")
What would the Supreme Judge’s robes look like, I wonder. I bet they’d be pretty cool. **zev** , technically, the Declaration of Independence does have some force as a legal document. Namely, it is the support for the proposition in U.S. law that “these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.” But yes, its various complaints do not have force of law, and a quick perusal of the document shows that it isn’t drafted in such a way as to give them force of law – they’re just complaints. The only affirmative legislative statement in the Declaration is the one I quoted. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/11 "2005-07-25T23:30:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > It might not be right, it might not be “fair,” but at least it ain’t entirely arbitrary. Your answer saddens me, but it is not unexpected. I fear you would not find it arbitrary punishing slaves for reading, because its the law. Please tell me what you find so arbitrary about the goal and ideal of Liberty in America. rwj ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/12 "2005-07-25T23:37:39Z")
**moderator** : Please place this title where it will be revealed a mouse hover. **These questions are for all Johns, all Justices, and all potential Accused.** ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/13 "2005-07-25T23:45:59Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > I don’t think anyone named John is going to be a Supreme Judge. A Justice of the Supreme Court, maybe… but not Supreme Judge. > Zev Steinhardt I would especially pray that when I come to the Supreme Judge, I would find not only Justice, but even a little Mercy. Right now, I am only asking for Justice. IntheSpirit r~ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/14 "2005-07-25T23:48:16Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Your answer saddens me, but it is not unexpected. I fear you would not find it arbitrary punishing slaves for reading, because its the law. That is correct. I would not value “justice” in such a situation, as the concept is nebulous enough to allow slaveowners the same moral ground as abolitionists. I would, however, do my damnedest to change the laws to better conform to my idea of what is just. > [@](#): > > Please tell me what you find so arbitrary about the goal and ideal of Liberty in America. Where on _earth_ did that come from? Certainly not from anything I’ve said. . . ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/15 "2005-07-26T00:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > If you were being tried, would you want your judge to answer to Justice or Law? Well, I agree with the notion advanced by a [much wiser man](http://www.dcba.org/brief/octissue/1997/art11097.htm)… > [@](#): > > A conversation reported to have occurred between U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Justice B. Learned Hand, at the time sitting on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, emphasizes a dilemma which has concerned me for sometime. > > Justice Holmes and Justice Hand, had lunch together. Afterward as Hand exited Holmes’ carriage and Holmes began to drive off, Hand, in a sudden onset of enthusiasm, ran after him, crying: > > “Do justice sir, do justice”; to which Holmes stopped the carriage and reproved Hand: > > “That is not my job. My job is to apply the law.” I prefer the imperfect application of the law to the vagaries of an individual’s notion of justice. I can understand the law and protect myself within its boundaries, whatever form it takes. I am in a greater jeopardy if I am protected only by some one else’s sense of justice. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/16 "2005-07-26T00:14:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, whichever of law or justice would result in my exoneration, I’d want to go with. If you caused or threatened harm, justice would not exonerate you. Justice would protect those that you harmed, those you threaten. Then again, if you did not harm or threaten, why would you trust in law that would punish you in the first place? It seems to me only those that fear justice prefer law. > [@](#): > > I’d want law and justice to be somewhat correlate with one another. Ideally, laws should be just. In which case there would be no meaningful distinction to choose between. So would you say that our Laws should be based on this ideal also? Should we also ask this question of lawmakers? > [@](#): > > What were you trying to debate again? I am curious to know the [del]excuses[/del] reasons people do not see this Truth. ItS rwj ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/17 "2005-07-26T00:36:11Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > BTW, pursuit of what, exactly? Hot women? Franklin Mint collectables? What would you pursue? If it does not prohibit someone else’s pursuit, why should the state prohibit your pursuit? > [@](#): > > A Justice of SCOTUS wouldn’t be bound to uphold any “right of Liberty” (??), but only to uphold the more codified rights laid out in the US Constitution. The Supreme court was not bound by the Constitution when it accepted the right to judge Legislation. Why would you now bind Justice? Do you deny these Truths? ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/18 "2005-07-26T00:40:16Z")
Why do you believe that Justice is an attainable perfection? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/19 "2005-07-26T00:51:42Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Whew!! For a minute there I was thinking I was being put on the spot with a trick question… 🙂 No tricks. If you were a judge, would you dispense Law or Justice? It seems to me we have an overabundance of laws and lawyers. I seek justice. Do you deny that the Constitution is/was instituted to secure these Rights? That these truths are just? ItS rwj ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115/20 "2005-07-26T01:09:19Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That is correct. I would not value “justice” in such a situation, as the concept is nebulous enough to allow slaveowners the same moral ground as abolitionists. I assure you the slave owners based their arguments on law, not justice. Please tell me how “all” excludes slaves. Doublespeak only changes the meaning; it does not change the truth. Calling tyranny by the name of justice does not make it justice. r~ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-john-roberts-candidate-for-supreme-court-justice/314115.md?page=2)