# Questions for those that think that the U.S.A. will collapse...and the sooner, the better
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 21, 2025, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348 "2025-08-21T04:26:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/81 "2025-08-23T03:41:49Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#):
>
> Said so many self-identified ‘adults in the room’ about the Weimar Republic circa 1930.
The Weimar Republic collapsed; _Germany_ did not. The present US system is going to collapse, but the fascist regime that follows it will likely last decades before its policies cause it to fall from general systemic failure. There won’t be an external invasion to topple Fascist America like there was with Germany.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/82 "2025-08-23T09:28:15Z")
Some thoughts:
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> The Republicans have a leadership cadre that is independent of the Trump administration
There are no secret adults ruling the world somewhere. What you see is what you get. No matter how dumb it looks. There is no secret backer richer than Musk, no politician that has more sway over the American public than Trump.
> [@Gordon\_G](#):
>
> _The sooner catastrophe hits, the sooner a difficult recovery can begin._
I’d argue the catastrophe has already hit. They’ve already built the camps, troops are already marching in the streets.
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#):
>
> we’ve always managed to overcome it
If a full blown civil war doesn’t count as a collapse nothing will.
There are still people living in the same geographical location. Not the same people, not the same country.
Different statues, different everything.
> [@madmonk28](#):
>
> Collapse means just that, huge disruptions to people’s lives, declining life spans, economic decline, increased violence and an “arms” race of sorts among people to look out for their own with little or no empathy for the rest of society
This describes the USA to a T.
> [@Crafter\_Man](#):
>
> Adult in the room. The U.S.A. isn’t going to “collapse” anytime soon.
So come down from your mountain and show us the tablets that show us why it hasn’t already collapsed. National papers are paying tribute to the warlord. How is this not a collapsed democracy? Former government officials are being harassed by the state for speaking out. Since when is that not banana republic/Nazi shit? Tell me what an “adult” sees if not a complete collapse of democratic norms.
You guys are excluding a huge middle here. There is room between “shiny city on the hill” / Leader of the free world vs. “The Stand”
If things aren’t looking like “The Walking Dead” and there is no nuclear winter, that doesn’t mean society hasn’t collapsed and there is no more rule of law. The country that impeached a president over a blowjob has truly and completely ceased to exist. The country where a president resigned in disgrace over some misdemeanors committed in his name does not resemble in any way the USA of 2025.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/83 "2025-08-23T10:21:36Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#):
>
> There are no secret adults ruling the world somewhere. What you see is what you get. No matter how dumb it looks. There is no secret backer richer than Musk, no politician that has more sway over the American public than Trump.
Also, the idea of some cabal behind them all using Trump and company as a front simply makes no sense, because it’s _the people who control the levers of power_ who can call the shots. Let’s suppose such a cabal actually existed; if Trump or whomever comes after him disagreed with them, he could simple crush them at a whim, because he’s got an army and they don’t.
At most, there’s some self-declared “we’re _totally_ in control, guys” group that has convinced themselves they are the real ones in control, who will get smashed like bugs if they ever _actually_ try to do anything other than what the people with real power want them to do. Just ask all the oligarchs in Russia who “fell out of windows” when Putin decided he didn’t like them how much _actual_ power and safety money and “influence” gets you in a fascist society.
---
### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/84 "2025-08-23T12:35:34Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#):
>
> There are no secret adults ruling the world somewhere. What you see is what you get. No matter how dumb it looks. There is no secret backer richer than Musk, no politician that has more sway over the American public than Trump.
> Based on public information and the project’s own website, Project 2025 is a coalition of conservative organizations led by **The Heritage Foundation**.
>
> The initiative’s partners include a broad range of think tanks, advocacy groups, and non-profit organizations. Here is a list of some of the most prominent organizations involved in the coalition:
>
> - The Heritage Foundation (leader)
> - America First Policy Institute
> - American Accountability Foundation
> - American Center for Law & Justice
> - Center for Renewing America
> - Citizens United
> - Claremont Institute
> - Family Research Council
> - Judicial Watch
> - Leadership Institute
> - National Association of Scholars
> - National Rifle Association (NRA)
> - PragerU
> - Young America’s Foundation
>
> This is a partial list, as the coalition includes a large number of organizations collaborating on different aspects of the project.
And that’s if we set aside the numerous data analysis groups that have provided services to Trump’s campaigns.
Nobody needs to think in terms of a ‘cabal’ or ‘invisible forces’ in order to understand that Trump truly _is_ the sociopathic front man for a movement with organization, finances, infrastructure, and determination.
One can also – just as an example – look further into any _one_ of the groups listed above, and – as usual – follow the money.
---
### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/85 "2025-08-23T13:32:50Z")
Though that post was 'confined’ to the lens of Project 2025, it’s also worth mentioning …..
> **[Federalist Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Society)**
>
> The Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies (FedSoc) is an American conservative and libertarian legal organization that advocates for a textualist and originalist interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., it has chapters at more than 200 law schools and features student, lawyer, and faculty divisions; the lawyers division comprises more than 70,000 practicing attorneys in ninety cities. Through speaking events, lectures, and other activi The Feder...
And individuals like Leonard Leo:
> **[Leonard Leo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Leo)**
>
> Leonard Anthony Leo (born November 1965) is an American lawyer, businessman, and conservative legal activist. He was the longtime vice president of the Federalist Society and is currently, along with Steven Calabresi, the co-chairman of the organization's board of directors.
> Leo has created a network of influential conservative legal groups funded mostly by anonymous donors, including The 85 Fund and Concord Fund, which serve as funding hubs for affiliated political nonprofits. He assisted C...
Can a self-respecting ‘**[cabal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal)**’ _ever_ operate in plain sight? Sounds like an etymological paradox to me 😉
---
### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/86 "2025-08-23T14:14:23Z")
Right, it’s no “secret cabal”. It’s an ideological movement and having made it to the top under the Trump banner, to stay there they are fine with supporting whatever else Miller, Bannon, Trump et al are pushing. Their pretense of standing as “serious” or “respectable” people/institutions is just about social recognition from their peers who share their standards, not about having some moral line they will not cross.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/87 "2025-08-23T14:35:40Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#):
>
> There are no secret adults ruling the world somewhere. What you see is what you get. No matter how dumb it looks.
If Trump and the magas were actually running things, we’d be better off. Not because they are good people; they’re truly evil. But because they’re too incompetent to actually accomplish anything.
The problem is that behind Trump and the magas there’s a large group of competent evil people who know how to get things done.
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Also, the idea of some cabal behind them all using Trump and company as a front simply makes no sense, because it’s _the people who control the levers of power_ who can call the shots. Let’s suppose such a cabal actually existed; if Trump or whomever comes after him disagreed with them, he could simple crush them at a whim, because he’s got an army and they don’t.
>
> At most, there’s some self-declared “we’re _totally_ in control, guys” group that has convinced themselves they are the real ones in control, who will get smashed like bugs if they ever _actually_ try to do anything other than what the people with real power want them to do.
Same as above.
Do you think Trump is reading long lists of names and deciding which individuals are being given positions in the government and the military based on his knowledge of them? Of course not. He isn’t even aware of who these people are and what jobs they’re being given. He probably hasn’t even read Project 2025.
All he knows is that there’s an organization out there doing something to take control of the government. And he thinks it’s being done on his behalf.
But the organization that is selecting the people to fill jobs in the government and the military isn’t choosing people based on their loyalty to Trump. They’re choosing them based on their loyalty to the organization.
The one who’s deluding himself that he’s in control is Donald Trump.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/88 "2025-08-23T16:37:31Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#):
>
> Adult in the room. The U.S.A. isn’t going to “collapse” anytime soon.
Folks who think like this are basically a fish in a bowl where the owner has gone on a long holiday and forgotten to tell anyone to check on the fish.
They don’t even know They’re in a bowl, and have a limited concept of what water is.
Sure the water is getting a bit cloudy, and the level has dropped a bit, but this has happened before and it’s all turned out OK. And you know… if there are any problems, it’s probably all the fault of that god-damned guppy who arrived a few months ago. He looks different. If we get rid of that illegal guppy, things will go back to normal.
Meanwhile, the water slowly drops, the algae grows and the fish keep saying “it’s all going to be fine.”
---
### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/89 "2025-08-23T16:51:19Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> Can a self-respecting ‘**[cabal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal)**’ _ever_ operate in plain sight? Sounds like an etymological paradox to me 😉
Well, what is the origin of “cabal”? I mean, that should explain _everything_.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/90 "2025-08-23T17:04:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> Folks who think like this are basically a fish in a bowl where the owner has gone on a long holiday and forgotten to tell anyone to check on the fish.
>
> They don’t even know They’re in a bowl, and have a limited concept of what water is.
Your analogy fails because unlike fish in a bowl we are in fact responsible for our own fates.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/91 "2025-08-23T17:09:28Z")
The fish think so too.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/92 "2025-08-23T17:30:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> The fish think so too
And who are the negligent humans in your analogy?
And as a fish keeper, I can guarantee you that they do not in fact understand abstract concepts like “fate” or “responsibility”.
---
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/93 "2025-08-23T17:48:48Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> they do not in fact understand abstract concepts like “fate” or “responsibility”.
Neither do the vast majority of Americans. You’re making my case for me.
---
### Author:  [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/94 "2025-08-23T18:17:05Z")
**Moderating:**
@What_Exit has previously issued a modnote which applies to the thread in general: Attack the post, NOT the poster. We have had a noticeable number of borderline posts involving this issue in the thread. Again, this is Great Debates, not the Pit as mentioned in the prior note.
Since this is the second time we’re discussing this in just 24 hours, I reiterate, this isn’t to a specific post or poster only, but to the **whole thread** : leave off the attacks on your fellow posters who we believe are expressing themselves in good faith, or if you think they _aren’t_ take it to the Pit.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2025, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/95 "2025-08-23T20:35:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> But the organization that is selecting the people to fill jobs in the government and the military isn’t choosing people based on their loyalty to Trump. They’re choosing them based on their loyalty to the organization.
You presume that it’s even _possible_ for them to find enough people in the movement that are loyal to them over MAGA/Trump. Trump didn’t take over the Republican party because he’s some political mastermind; he did it because MAGA likes him, and for all intents and purposes MAGA _is_ the Right. If the leaders of those organizations think they can use MAGA to gain power then they are making the same mistake the old Republican leadership did.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2025, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/96 "2025-08-24T02:01:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> You presume that it’s even _possible_ for them to find enough people in the movement that are loyal to them over MAGA/Trump. Trump didn’t take over the Republican party because he’s some political mastermind; he did it because MAGA likes him, and for all intents and purposes MAGA _is_ the Right. If the leaders of those organizations think they can use MAGA to gain power then they are making the same mistake the old Republican leadership did.
I disagree. Trump didn’t invent the right wing in 2016; it’s been up and running since at least the eighties. It seems unlikely that that organization just disappeared.
It also seems implausible that Trump took it over and made it his own. Trump’s a lazy idiot. I doubt he’s capable of making himself breakfast. Why should we imagine he’s capable of taking over a powerful political organization?
And the magas are dumber than Trump. We saw them try to take over the country on January 6. All they could do was break into a building and then wander around trying to figure out what they should do next. Don’t tell me these guys are political masterminds.
This kind of fixation on Trump and the magas is why the Republicans will benefit when they betray them. Too many people will think that all the bad stuff going on was due to Trump and the magas and ended with them.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2025, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/97 "2025-08-24T02:08:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> And the magas are dumber than Trump. We saw them try to take over the country on January 6. All they could do was break into a building and then wander around trying to figure out what they should do next. Don’t tell me these guys are political masterminds.
They don’t have to be. As they continue to fall upwards, more and more we become a true confederacy of dunces.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/98 "2025-08-24T02:30:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> They don’t have to be. As they continue to fall upwards, more and more we become a true confederacy of dunces.
In a competition between smart criminals and dumb criminals, the smart criminals win.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/99 "2025-08-24T02:38:01Z")
When you only have to be smarter than your victims, the smarter criminals are dying on the vine.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2025, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348/100 "2025-08-24T03:43:45Z")
What does this even mean?
You said criminals have to be smarter than their victims. And you seem to think that Donald Trump and the magas are running things. (Although you’re not clear on this point.)
So are you saying that you think Donald Trump and the magas are smarter than everybody else?
I see no evidence of that. In fact, I see plenty of evidence of the opposite; ie that Trump and the magas are below average in intelligence.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348.md?page=4)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-for-those-that-think-that-the-u-s-a-will-collapse-and-the-sooner-the-better/1022348.md?page=6)