# Questions on Christianity (Again...) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952 "2010-08-30T02:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1041 "2010-09-15T23:40:00Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > Job 38:14 > > The verse says “It (the earth) takes on form like clay under a seal…” > > UNDER a seal. UNDER. > > When a clay pot received it’s impression from the seal, it was turned on a wheel. The passage refers specifically to a round, oops sorry ‘ball’, receiving it’s ‘impression’. The description envisages the rotation of the earth on its axis. Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1042 "2010-09-15T23:46:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Job 38:14 > > > > The verse says “It (the earth) takes on form like clay under a seal…” > > > > UNDER a seal. UNDER. > > > > When a clay pot received it’s impression from the seal, it was turned on a wheel. The passage refers specifically to a round, oops sorry ‘ball’, receiving it’s ‘impression’. The description envisages the rotation of the earth on its axis. > > Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is? Clay pots receive the IMPRESSION. They take on ‘form’. Clay under a seal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1043 "2010-09-15T23:50:08Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is? > > Clay pots receive the IMPRESSION. They take on ‘form’. Clay under a seal. They clay itself was used AS a seal, much like wax was used later. You don’t(and they didn’t) seal pots. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1044 "2010-09-15T23:52:09Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is? > > Clay pots receive the IMPRESSION. They take on ‘form’. Clay under a seal. Seals are flat. How the hell could you put a flat impression on a round pot? And where are you getting this from, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1045 "2010-09-15T23:54:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Job 38:14 > > > > The verse says “It (the earth) takes on form like clay under a seal…” > > > > UNDER a seal. UNDER. > > > > When a clay pot received it’s impression from the seal, it was turned on a wheel. The passage refers specifically to a round, oops sorry ‘ball’, receiving it’s ‘impression’. The description envisages the rotation of the earth on its axis. > > Worst misreading of a metaphor I have _evar_ seen. > It doesn’t refer to a clay pot, and “It is turned as clay to the seal…” doesn’t refer to anything turning around-it is saying that the seal is _transforming_(turning) the clay into something else. How is clay ‘turned’ if it is applied flat to a flat seal? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1046 "2010-09-15T23:55:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Clay pots receive the IMPRESSION. They take on ‘form’. Clay under a seal. > > Seals are flat. How the hell could you put a flat impression on a round pot? And where are you getting this from, anyway? Have you never heard of cylindrical seals? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1047 "2010-09-15T23:58:30Z")
> **[Cylinder seal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_seal)** > > A cylinder seal is a small round cylinder, typically about one inch (2 to 3 cm) in length, engraved with written characters or figurative scenes or both, used in ancient times to roll an impression onto a two-dimensional surface, generally wet clay. According to some sources, cylinder seals were invented around 3500 BC in the Near East, at the contemporary sites of Uruk in southern Mesopotamia and slightly later at Susa in south-western Iran during the Proto-Elamite period, and they follow the ... ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1048 "2010-09-15T23:59:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Clay pots receive the IMPRESSION. They take on ‘form’. Clay under a seal. > > They clay itself was used AS a seal, much like wax was used later. You don’t(and they didn’t) seal pots. Wrong. The ‘seal’ is the cylindrical engraving. The impression was transferred by turning the pot against the cylindrical seal. “It takes on form like clay under a seal…” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1049 "2010-09-16T00:00:29Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is? > > Clay pots receive the IMPRESSION. They take on ‘form’. Clay under a seal. The “clay” in that passage does not refer to pots but to the flat tablets used to receive imprints from cylinder seals. Here – [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_seal) is what is being referred to. See how the seal rolls out over the tablet and leaves an impression? That’s what they’re talking about. They didn’t do this with pots. They did it with official documents. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1050 "2010-09-16T00:04:11Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > They clay itself was used AS a seal, much like wax was used later. You don’t(and they didn’t) seal pots. > > Wrong. The ‘seal’ is the cylindrical engraving. The impression was transferred by turning the pot against the cylindrical seal. > > “It takes on form like clay under a seal…” Please show me an example of a pot that was “sealed” using this method. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1051 "2010-09-16T00:04:29Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > [Cylinder seal - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_seal) If you’d bothered to click your own link, you’d have seen that while the seal is cylindrical, the clay is flat. This is because the seal is used like a rolling pin. I believe there are newspaper printing plates that work the same way. If you tried to do this on a pot that was being shaped on a wheel you’d smoosh it. You’d have to do it afterwards, when the spinning is stopped, and the resulting surface would _inevitably_ be flat - even when you did it to a portion of the side (or lid) of a jar. If you were deliberately _trying_ to prove that you were wrong, you couldn’t do a better job. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1052 "2010-09-16T00:14:32Z")
"Thus cylinder seals have two components: the cylindrically-shaped seal itself and the impression it leaves on some other material. Archeologists sometimes find the seal itself, sometimes just its ancient impression. Impressions have been found most commonly on clay tablets (ancient documents) and their clay “envelopes,” bricks, ceramics such as storage jars (clay pots), doors, and bales of commodities for sale." [http://www.themadjws.com/archaeology.htm](http://www.themadjws.com/archaeology.htm) ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1053 "2010-09-16T00:16:00Z")
But ancient cylinder seals had far more uses than just as signatures or tamper-proof seals. They also stood for the owner and thus had a secondary use as amulets to protect the wearer from harm or use in medical and magical rituals. Often, they had a decorative function when stamped on clay pots, etc. [http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational\_site/ancient\_texts/cylinder\_seals.shtml](http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/ancient_texts/cylinder_seals.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1054 "2010-09-16T00:23:26Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > "Thus cylinder seals have two components: the cylindrically-shaped seal itself and the impression it leaves on some other material. Archeologists sometimes find the seal itself, sometimes just its ancient impression. > > Impressions have been found most commonly on clay tablets (ancient documents) and their clay “envelopes,” bricks, ceramics such as storage jars (clay pots), doors, and bales of commodities for sale." > > [http://www.themadjws.com/archaeology.htm](http://www.themadjws.com/archaeology.htm) The odds that this was done on any _spinning_ jar is zero, given that that would destroy the pot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1055 "2010-09-16T00:25:11Z")
Most typically, the seals were used on flat tablets. You have no basis at all for insisting that this passage referred to clay pots. That would be atypical even if not unheard of. It’s also VERY clear that it’s the SEAL that’s being turned in that metaphor, not the earth. It’s actually ridulous to read this metaphor as referring to anything but the commonly understood (for the contemporary audience) of a cylinder seal being turned on a tablet. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1056 "2010-09-16T00:27:44Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > Job 38:14 > > The verse says “It (the earth) takes on form like clay under a seal…” > > UNDER a seal. UNDER. > > When a clay pot received it’s impression from the seal, it was turned on a wheel. The passage refers specifically to a round, oops sorry ‘ball’, receiving it’s ‘impression’. The description envisages the rotation of the earth on its axis. This is the oddest effort to invent an explanation I have seen in a very long while. There is no mention of “pots,” at all. It just mentions clay. You are adding a spurious meaning that is not supported by the text. ANY soft clay will accept an imprint from a seal and there is no reason to inject a claim for there being a wheel-turned pot. It does nothing to enhance the metaphor (that God imprinted the wearth with his design) and it certainly says nothing about the shape of the earth. However, since you are going to continue to make up claims to support your errors, I am going to let this drop, (unless someone from the peanut gallery actually expresses the notion that he or she believes you, in which case I would be forced to come back to correct them). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1057 "2010-09-16T00:31:38Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > And a circle is round. It is also flat. The earth, however, is round in three directions, while a circle is not. Any reference to “the circle of the earth” has to be a reference to a flat earth encompassed by the visible horizon and not to the rough sphere of the actual shape of the earth. And you have still not found a “scientist” (or even a philosopher subsequent to Aristotle) who argued for a flat earth, so you remain doubly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1058 "2010-09-16T01:07:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > "Thus cylinder seals have two components: the cylindrically-shaped seal itself and the impression it leaves on some other material. Archeologists sometimes find the seal itself, sometimes just its ancient impression. > > > > Impressions have been found most commonly on clay tablets (ancient documents) and their clay “envelopes,” bricks, ceramics such as storage jars (clay pots), doors, and bales of commodities for sale." > > > > [http://www.themadjws.com/archaeology.htm](http://www.themadjws.com/archaeology.htm) > > The odds that this was done on any _spinning_ jar is zero, given that that would destroy the pot. No it wouldn’t. The posts make it clear what was done. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1059 "2010-09-16T01:16:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Job 38:14 > > > > The verse says “It (the earth) takes on form like clay under a seal…” > > > > UNDER a seal. UNDER. > > > > When a clay pot received it’s impression from the seal, it was turned on a wheel. The passage refers specifically to a round, oops sorry ‘ball’, receiving it’s ‘impression’. The description envisages the rotation of the earth on its axis. > > This is the oddest effort to invent an explanation I have seen in a very long while. > > There is no mention of “pots,” at all. It just mentions clay. You are adding a spurious meaning that is not supported by the text. ANY soft clay will accept an imprint from a seal and there is no reason to inject a claim for there being a wheel-turned pot. It does nothing to enhance the metaphor (that God imprinted the wearth with his design) and it certainly says nothing about the shape of the earth. > > However, since you are going to continue to make up claims to support your errors, I am going to let this drop, (unless someone from the peanut gallery actually expresses the notion that he or she believes you, in which case I would be forced to come back to correct them). You need to regain some balance. There have a been a number of false claims made by your colleagues here that you have chosen to ignore, such as “Seals are flat” by Czarcasm, and “Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is?” by Diogenes. I await with interest you refutuation of these comments now they have been proven to be incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1060 "2010-09-16T01:19:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > And a circle is round. > > It is also flat. The earth, however, is round in three directions, while a circle is not. Any reference to “the circle of the earth” has to be a reference to a flat earth encompassed by the visible horizon and not to the rough sphere of the actual shape of the earth. No it doesn’t, unless you choose to interpret it that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952.md?page=54)