# Questions on Christianity (Again...) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952 "2010-08-30T02:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1061 "2010-09-16T01:22:01Z")
And no comments on this yet? Genesis 15:5 and Jeremiah 33:32 say the stars cannot be numbered by man. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later Ptolemy said there are 1,056. Kepler counted 1,006. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1062 "2010-09-16T01:26:54Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > This is the oddest effort to invent an explanation I have seen in a very long while. > > > > There is no mention of “pots,” at all. It just mentions clay. You are adding a spurious meaning that is not supported by the text. ANY soft clay will accept an imprint from a seal and there is no reason to inject a claim for there being a wheel-turned pot. It does nothing to enhance the metaphor (that God imprinted the wearth with his design) and it certainly says nothing about the shape of the earth. > > > > However, since you are going to continue to make up claims to support your errors, I am going to let this drop, (unless someone from the peanut gallery actually expresses the notion that he or she believes you, in which case I would be forced to come back to correct them). > > You need to regain some balance. > > There have a been a number of false claims made by your colleagues here that you have chosen to ignore, such as “Seals are flat” by Czarcasm, and “Clay pots didn’t receive seals. Do you actually know what a seal is?” by Diogenes. > > I await with interest you refutuation of these comments now they have been proven to be incorrect. Also, some translations (eg the KJV) read “It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.” TURNED. How do you ‘turn’ a flat piece of clay? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1063 "2010-09-16T01:42:22Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > Also, some translations (eg the KJV) read “It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.” > > TURNED. How do you ‘turn’ a flat piece of clay? Not “turn” as in “rotate”, “turn” as in “change”. The seal _changes_ the clay by imprinting upon it. The verse is saying that the Earth is imprinted much like a seal changes a blank slab of clay. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1064 "2010-09-16T01:56:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Also, some translations (eg the KJV) read “It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.” > > > > TURNED. How do you ‘turn’ a flat piece of clay? > > Not “turn” as in “rotate”, “turn” as in “change”. The seal _changes_ the clay by imprinting upon it. The verse is saying that the Earth is imprinted much like a seal changes a blank slab of clay. Yes I understand the way the word ‘turn’ can be used, but you are only guessing as to your interpretation. It is also interesting to consider the views of the ‘early Church’ to ascertain how they interpreted the passages we are discussing. [Donald Simanek's Pages; science, pseudoscience, education, humor.](http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm) says “The early Christian Church accepted Aristotle’s spherical earth. But a few malcontents within the Church pointed out that the Bible speaks of ‘the four corners’ of the earth. In the 5th century CE the monk Cosmas Indicopleustes, in his Christian Topography, described a square earth with a heavenly vault, much like the Egyptian model. Tertulian also was a flat-earther.” “From Late Antiquity, and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread…” [Flat Earth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church) and “Europe’s view of the shape of the Earth in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages may be best expressed by the writings of early Christian scholars:” which goes on to quote Boethius, Bede etc. “A non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere, is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire.” > **[Flat Earth | Early Christian Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church)** > > During the early period of the Christian Church, the spherical view continued to be widely held, with some notable exceptions. > Until the mid-fourth century AD, virtually all Christian authors held that the Earth was round. Athenagoras, an eastern Christian writing around the year 175 AD, said that the Earth was spherical. Methodius (c. 290 AD), an eastern Christian writing against "the theory of the Chaldeans and the Egyptians" said: "Let us first lay bare ... the theory of the Chaldeans and th... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1065 "2010-09-16T02:09:42Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > Yes I understand the way the word ‘turn’ can be used, but you are only guessing as to your interpretation. Actually, given that of all the English translations of the bible except ther KJV use different verbs, none of which have anything to do with “turning” or “rotary motion,” you need to be “guessing” (or inventing) your odd interpretation. > [@aigonz](#): > > It is also interesting to consider the views of the ‘early Church’ to ascertain how they interpreted the passages we are discussing. > > [Donald Simanek's Pages; science, pseudoscience, education, humor.](http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm) says “The early Christian Church accepted Aristotle’s spherical earth. But a few malcontents within the Church pointed out that the Bible speaks of ‘the four corners’ of the earth. In the 5th century CE the monk Cosmas Indicopleustes, in his Christian Topography, described a square earth with a heavenly vault, much like the Egyptian model. Tertulian also was a flat-earther.” > > “From Late Antiquity, and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread…” [Flat Earth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church) > > and “Europe’s view of the shape of the Earth in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages may be best expressed by the writings of early Christian scholars:” > > which goes on to quote Boethius, Bede etc. > > “A non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere, is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire.” > > [Flat Earth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church) What point did you think you were making? Aside from a couple of odd people, the majority of Christians accepted the shperical nature of the earth–a shape that was known by the pagans as early as Aristotle (as your own link points out). So, the pagans recognized the spherical shape of the earth. The educated Christians accepted that same understanding. No “scientists” challenged that belief (an error you refuse to recant). And all the references to the bible in your first link agree with your opponents, here, that the bible portrays the earth as flat. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1066 "2010-09-16T02:12:23Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > No it doesn’t, unless you choose to interpret it that way. Well, it is true that I generally choose to “interpret” words using the meanings that they actually convey. I realize that you do not feel bound by that convention, but the overwhelming majority of people, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, or whatever, are on my side for this one. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1067 "2010-09-16T03:17:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > No it doesn’t, unless you choose to interpret it that way. > > Well, it is true that I generally choose to “interpret” words using the meanings that they actually convey. I realize that you do not feel bound by that convention, but the overwhelming majority of people, Christian, Jewish, Atheist, or whatever, are on my side for this one. Oh and of course you’ve done a scientific poll on that one eh? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1068 "2010-09-16T03:19:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Yes I understand the way the word ‘turn’ can be used, but you are only guessing as to your interpretation. > > Actually, given that of all the English translations of the bible except ther KJV use different verbs, none of which have anything to do with “turning” or “rotary motion,” you need to be “guessing” (or inventing) your odd interpretation. > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > It is also interesting to consider the views of the ‘early Church’ to ascertain how they interpreted the passages we are discussing. > > > > [Donald Simanek's Pages; science, pseudoscience, education, humor.](http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm) says “The early Christian Church accepted Aristotle’s spherical earth. But a few malcontents within the Church pointed out that the Bible speaks of ‘the four corners’ of the earth. In the 5th century CE the monk Cosmas Indicopleustes, in his Christian Topography, described a square earth with a heavenly vault, much like the Egyptian model. Tertulian also was a flat-earther.” > > > > “From Late Antiquity, and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread…” [Flat Earth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church) > > > > and “Europe’s view of the shape of the Earth in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages may be best expressed by the writings of early Christian scholars:” > > > > which goes on to quote Boethius, Bede etc. > > > > “A non-literary but graphic indication that people in the Middle Ages believed that the Earth (or perhaps the world) was a sphere, is the use of the orb (globus cruciger) in the regalia of many kingdoms and of the Holy Roman Empire.” > > > > [Flat Earth - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Early_Christian_Church) > > What point did you think you were making? Aside from a couple of odd people, the majority of Christians accepted the shperical nature of the earth–a shape that was known by the pagans as early as Aristotle (as your own link points out). > > So, the pagans recognized the spherical shape of the earth. > The educated Christians accepted that same understanding. > No “scientists” challenged that belief (an error you refuse to recant). > > And all the references to the bible in your first link agree with your opponents, here, that the bible portrays the earth as flat. The Bible speaks of a round earth, not a flat one. The Bible implies a round earth in several passages, as you have been shown. Most early church leaders interpreted it that way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1069 "2010-09-16T03:36:28Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > The Bible speaks of a round earth, not a flat one. False. The bible rarely speaks of the shape of the earth, but only uses a flat circle when it does. Never the word “round” that you keep using in error. > [@aigonz](#): > > The Bible implies a round earth in several passages, as you have been shown. False, as the links in your [Post #1063](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12920067&postcount=1063) demonstrate. > [@aigonz](#): > > Most early church leaders interpreted it that way. False. Again, as your own links in [Post #1063](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12920067&postcount=1063) indicate, most early church leaders looked to the knowledge from the pagan philosophers for their understanding of the shape of the earth, while the few who argued for a flat earth did so from their reading of the bible. ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1070 "2010-09-16T04:55:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > The Bible speaks of a round earth, not a flat one. > > False. The bible rarely speaks of the shape of the earth, but only uses a flat circle when it does. Never the word “round” that you keep using in error. > > False, as the links in your [Post #1063](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12920067&postcount=1063) demonstrate. > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > Most early church leaders interpreted it that way. > > False. Again, as your own links in [Post #1063](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12920067&postcount=1063) indicate, most early church leaders looked to the knowledge from the pagan philosophers for their understanding of the shape of the earth, while the few who argued for a flat earth did so from their reading of the bible. 1\> Wrong. The Bible does not speak of a ‘flat’ circle. It speaks of a ‘circle’. A circle is round. The earth is commonly described as ‘round’. 2\> Wrong. Those posts speak of a ‘few malcontents’. 3\> Wrong. Quote “From Late Antiquity, and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread…”. Requote: “the beginnings of Christian theology…” ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1071 "2010-09-16T05:01:47Z")
“Further proof of the Earth being round came after the voyage of Columbus.” “If the Earth were not round, whole hemispheres would have different atmospheric pressure and significantly different sea levels. Also, pictures taken of the Earth in the last 50 years have proved absolutely conclusively that the Earth is round.” > **[How can one prove that the world is round?](https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae535.cfm)** > > Ask the experts your physics and astronomy questions, read answer archive, and more. “When Christopher Columbus proposed to reach India by sailing west from Spain, he too knew that the Earth was round.” > **[The Round Earth and Christopher Columbus](https://pwg.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm)** > > The story of Columbus and early attempts to establish the shape and size of the earth; part of an educational web site on astronomy, mechanics, and space You’ll need to write these people, and the countless others who also speak of the earth as being round, and tell them they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1072 "2010-09-16T05:03:16Z")
If you are asked to draw a circle, what do you draw? If you are told to turn in a circle, how do you turn? Do you envision a fairy circle to be a globe? Is the Arctic Circle ball-shaped? Is it silly to even discuss this? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1073 "2010-09-16T05:07:16Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > 1\> Wrong. The Bible does not speak of a ‘flat’ circle. It speaks of a ‘circle’. A circle is round. The earth is commonly described as ‘round’. Quote the passage of the bible that says the world is “round” or don’t bother posting this nonsense again. All circles are flat; if they were not flat, they would be spheres. > [@aigonz](#): > > 2\> Wrong. Those posts speak of a ‘few malcontents’. > > 3\> Wrong. Quote “From Late Antiquity, and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread…”. Requote: “the beginnings of Christian theology…” The malcontents are the ones holding out for the biblical image. The rest of the people just recognized that the pagan Aristotle was right. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1074 "2010-09-16T05:10:22Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > You’ll need to write these people, and the countless others who also speak of the earth as being round, and tell them they’re wrong. The issue is not that the world may be described, (in English) as “round.” The issue is that you falsly claim that the bible says that the world is “round” when the only images used in the bible are those that employ the word for a two-dimensional (flat) circle. That you continue to harp on the English word “round” indicates that you are either truly lacking in knowledge or that you are trolling–and I am beginning to get the strong suspicion that is is the latter. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1075 "2010-09-16T05:15:47Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > And no comments on this yet? > > Genesis 15:5 and Jeremiah 33:32 say the stars cannot be numbered by man. > > Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later Ptolemy said there are 1,056. Kepler counted 1,006. It’s pretty easy to look up at the night sky and see that even the visible stars are virtually uncountable. So what if a couple of people tried? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1076 "2010-09-16T06:08:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you are asked to draw a circle, what do you draw? > If you are told to turn in a circle, how do you turn? > Do you envision a fairy circle to be a globe? > Is the Arctic Circle ball-shaped? > Is it silly to even discuss this? When you are asked to draw the earth, do you roll up a ball of paper and colour it? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1077 "2010-09-16T06:14:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > 1\> Wrong. The Bible does not speak of a ‘flat’ circle. It speaks of a ‘circle’. A circle is round. The earth is commonly described as ‘round’. > > Quote the passage of the bible that says the world is “round” or don’t bother posting this nonsense again. > > All circles are flat; if they were not flat, they would be spheres. > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > 2\> Wrong. Those posts speak of a ‘few malcontents’. > > > > 3\> Wrong. Quote “From Late Antiquity, and from the beginnings of Christian theology, knowledge of the sphericity of the Earth had become widespread…”. Requote: “the beginnings of Christian theology…” > > The malcontents are the ones holding out for the biblical image. The rest of the people just recognized that the pagan Aristotle was right. You got it wrong, and now you’re wriggling. 1\> You claimed the bible speaks of a flat circle. It doesn’t. Your error. 2\> The quote speaks of ‘a few malcontents’ who claimed a flat earth. Your error. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1078 "2010-09-16T06:19:36Z")
> [@aigonz](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > If you are asked to draw a circle, what do you draw? > > If you are told to turn in a circle, how do you turn? > > Do you envision a fairy circle to be a globe? > > Is the Arctic Circle ball-shaped? > > Is it silly to even discuss this? > > When you are asked to draw the earth, do you roll up a ball of paper and colour it? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![aigonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@aigonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aigonz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1079 "2010-09-16T06:21:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@aigonz](#): > > > > You’ll need to write these people, and the countless others who also speak of the earth as being round, and tell them they’re wrong. > > The issue is not that the world may be described, (in English) as “round.” The issue is that you falsly claim that the bible says that the world is “round” when the only images used in the bible are those that employ the word for a two-dimensional (flat) circle. > > That you continue to harp on the English word “round” indicates that you are either truly lacking in knowledge or that you are trolling–and I am beginning to get the strong suspicion that is is the latter. > > [/Moderating] My last post demonstrates you were either in error or dishonest in representing my claims. I am getting the strong suspicion it is the latter. The earth is described in the Bible as a circle. A circle is round. In common language the earth is still described as round today. If you google ‘round earth’ there are 64,200,000 hits. Discussions that took place ove rthe earths shape involved discussion of the ‘flat earth/round earth’ differences. You are being disingenuous. Stick to moderating. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952/1080 "2010-09-16T06:29:23Z")
A cat is an animal. A dog is an animal. Therefore a cat is a dog. A circle is round. A sphere is round. Therefore a circle is a sphere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-christianity-again/551952.md?page=55)