# Questions on Medal of Honor customs and laws **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934 "2013-11-02T17:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/61 "2013-11-06T05:20:39Z")
**Bear Nenno**. The VC does seem to have a [tradition of saluting](http://web.archive.org/web/20070609182751/http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/VictoriaAndGeorgeCrossHoldersTheWorldsMostExclusiveClub.htm) holders. > [@](#): > > Chiefs of Staff will salute a private soldier awarded a VC or GC Its not AFAICT a law or a regulation. Perhaps he MoH tradition started during the WWII in imitation ( a bit like berets actually). ---
**Author:** ![Cell\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Cell\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cell_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/62 "2013-11-06T06:43:34Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > BTW, **Cell Guy** , go ahead and ask your Army buddy these three questions: > > Why doesn’t a compass point north? > Do you have to wear a PC if you’re under cover? > Do you have to wear your PC while driving a TMP or GOV? I have done so and while I cannot post his exact answers (inappropriate for this forum), I will say that they are in line with information that you have previously posted. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/63 "2013-11-06T09:49:23Z")
**Bear Nenno** provided the answer. I’ll add that I have a problem with someone asserting that something’s _required_ (as in “It [being saluted by a higher ranking individual] comes with the medal.”) when, in fact, it is _not required_. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/64 "2013-11-06T14:31:10Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Loach, I don’t have a dog in this fight. It’s not like I _want_ it to be one way or the other. But the evidence is not there. If it is, I would genuinely LOVE to see. I welcome it. However, I gave up looking for it several years ago. The last time we had a thread similar to this. And I remember back then (2008?), there was even LESS out there to suggest it was a tradition. Everything that says “oh, yea it’s a tradition” seems to have been written in the past couple years. > > I know you were not asking me, but I’ll answer. I have a problem with labeling something a “tradition” that simply has no evidence behind it, considering how much evidence (PAMs, ARs, FMs, SOPs) is behind every other tradition the Army has. > > The reason for all of the confusion, and all of the recent “It’s a tradition” articles written recently, is because of the fact that now we have awarded the MOH to currently serving, living Soldiers. Before SSG Guinta, that hadn’t happened in like 3 decades. Thirty years is a long time for the rumor-mill to create a tradition that never existed. Before Guinta, Soldiers would swear to you that it is a regulation to salute the MOH. But now that more and more MOHs are being awarded to living Soldiers who are still serving, the subject has been getting brought up more. And people have finally started realizing that they were mistaken, and it isn’t a regulation. Now it appears some people have a hard time accepting they were wrong, and want to write articles that say, “It’s a tradition”. I think the recent AFI 1-1 from the Air Force shows that even high ranking people have been misinformed, or misunderstood the rules regarding a situation that just hadn’t come up in 30 years. > > Before now, if active Soldiers were saluting a MOH recipient, they would have been saluting a civilian, retired veteran. Well Soldiers do that all the time anyway to civilian retired vets at military functions. One with a MOH would certainly have been saluted, but so would the guy next to him without it. If the guy assaulted Normandy beach, he’s going to get saluted by just about every Soldier there regardless of rank. 30 years of that without any instance of an actual currently serving Soldier wearing a MOH… that is enough time for ignorance to work its magic. A very well written and thought out post. But I have to ask you, what do you think is a tradition? It was established right away that there is no regulation stating it is required. I know from experience it was an old tradition as of when I joined in 1989. There were still active duty MoH awardees around and plenty of Viet Nam vets. Its been shown to be around since at least WWII and probably before. If its been held as a tradition for at least 70 years when does it become a tradition in your eyes? At least one former Commander in Chief acknowledged the tradition when presenting the medal to CPT Ed Freeman. > [@](#): > > But from this day, wherever he goes, by military tradition, Ed Freeman will merit a salute from any enlisted personnel or officer of rank. Commander Seevers, I’ll now ask you to read this citation of the newest member of the Congressional Medal of Honor Society, and it’ll be my honor to give him his first salute. Said in a room full of the Chiefs of Staff and I’m sure written with the protocol officers who handle such things for the president. (Before anything is said by anyone, yes its the Medal of Honor not the Congressional Medal of Honor. But the group established by Congress for the recipients (living and dead) is officially called the [Congressional Medal of Honor Society.)](http://www.cmohs.org/) One of the things that I found while looking things up is that the [Navy](http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmcp/EduTrain/hmtraining/Documents/14325.pdf) states that honors may be rendered to Medal of Honor recipients. That is the entire ship will salute a MoH recipient. Not exactly the same thing but it shows a tradition of honoring recipients with salutes even by those of higher rank. > [@](#): > > Honors are salutes rendered to individuals of > merit, such as recipients of the Medal of Honor, to > high-ranking individuals, to ships, and to nations. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/65 "2013-11-06T14:46:18Z")
I think the salute to MOH awardees is urban legend, that is/has become lore to some. I wouldn’t salute one unless he otherwise merited the salute. On the Navy side, I’ve never seen that requirement in writing. In truth, I think there is only one MOH awardee in the military right now so this isn’t going to come up all that often. As mentioned up thread, I talked to one MOH awardee who I worked with and asked him about the salute. Perhaps it’s because he was a Marine, but he laughed and said it was nonsense to think that he’d be saluted but superiors due to the MOH. I have to disagree with one previous comment. I do salute Officers senior to me if they are in civilian clothes. An Admiral in civilian clothes doesn’t stop being an Admiral. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/66 "2013-11-06T15:08:03Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > One of the things that I found while looking things up is that the [Navy](http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmcp/EduTrain/hmtraining/Documents/14325.pdf) states that honors may be rendered to Medal of Honor recipients. That is the entire ship will salute a MoH recipient. Not exactly the same thing but it shows a tradition of honoring recipients with salutes even by those of higher rank. Well, the training guide mentions shipboard honors to MOH recipients, but then doesn’t state how or when it would be done. Additionally, that same guide discusses saluting for a full eight pages, but doesn’t make one mention of saluting MOH awardees. I think that says a lot and disproves your comment that the Navy supports the saluting of those with a MOH. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/67 "2013-11-06T19:48:19Z")
> [@Cell\_Guy](#): > > I have done so and while I cannot post his exact answers (inappropriate for this forum), I will say that they are in line with information that you have previously posted. What’s your point? In line with the information that I previously posted? If you’re saying that his answer was in line with “an iron ore deposit near Hudson Bay” then you have proven my point. You have proven it whether you understand my point or not. > [@Loach](#): > > Said in a room full of the Chiefs of Staff and I’m sure written with the protocol officers who handle such things for the president. This reminds me of an incident back in 2011. My battalion in Italy had been awarded a certain Navy Unit Commendation medal for their service in Iraq several years early. There was a huge ceremony for the award shortly before another deployment, this time to Afghanistan. After we all got back from deployment, it being near Christmas time and Military Ball season, we were all rushing around trying to get our dress uniforms squared away. The CSM, with guidance from the protocol office and concurrance from every 1SG and senior leader in the unit, was mandating that every Soldier in the BN have the newly awarded unit citation on their dress uniform. Afterall, it’s Army tradition to wear the units’ citations from engagements past, even if you were not present. Right? That’s obvious, and everyone knows that’s the rule. It became a big pain in the butt because Clothing Sales was out of them, and ordering from online to Italy takes forever. There was much discussion about weather or not we could actually be forced to wear the medal if not in a formation. People went back and forth about it, but the 1SG had the CSM riding his ass, and it was clear that anyone showing up to a promotion board or something without that medal would be kicked out. I happened to discover that not only was it the case that we couldn’t be ordered to wear the medal, in fact, wearing that medal was unauthorized. Everyone just assumed that Army tradition is to wear the unit’s citations. People were so sure that this is true for all unit awards, that apparantly, nobody bothered to check. It wasn’t until a promotion board months later in which one of my Soldiers arrived without wearing the medal that the Battalion policy was changed. The CSM had me, the sponsor, standing before him at the promotion board explaining why exactly I told my Soldier not to wear the medal. I matter of factly said that the medal is not authorized for wear. He said, “Well we are all wearing it!”. I said, “With all due respect, Sergeant Major, the members of the board are all wrong.” I still remember the look on the CSM’s face and that of all four 1SGs sitting on the board. We talked back and forth as I explained myself and the relevant part of AR 670-1. He then stated, “Well if you’re right, this is a big deal because people who are supposed to be smarter than us have said this is right.” He then told me that I would owe him and every 1SG there an email explaining what I had told them at the board, and they would need it by the end of the day. By the next week, the entire battalion policy was updated to reflect proper regulatory guidance. Oh, and my Soldier passed the board. The point of that whole story is that the presence of all those people “who should know” does not sway me one bit or convince me that they actually do. As far as Bush’s statement, I think it is just more of the same. I would love, however, to read a speech like that from an official in the 1940s, or hell, even up until the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/68 "2013-11-06T19:57:05Z")
Just to add, since the term “Clothing Sales” was in my last post, I am reminded of another one of my pet peeves of misinformation. The store where Soldiers purchase uniforms is called Clothing Sales. It is not “Clothing _and_ Sales”. However, more than 90% of Soldiers call it “Clothing and Sales”. That’s just what they think it is called, because that’s what everyone else calls it. …and a hidden stash of weapons is called a Ka-shey. Of course it is, how could half a million Soldiers be pronouncing it wrong? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/69 "2013-11-06T22:16:47Z")
Bottom line, I don’t think anyone is really going to mind if while in uniform, a GI renders a salute to a MOH holder. The MOH holder may or may not return the salute. That’s the way it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/70 "2013-11-06T22:20:50Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > The point of that whole story is that the presence of all those people “who should know” does not sway me one bit or convince me that they actually do. The big difference is that in your example it was actually against regulations. You can point out the lack of a written regulation regarding the MoH but nothing prohibiting it. My main point (that I may have pounded into the dirt too much already) is that if something is believed and followed as tradition by an organization for many many decades, it becomes tradition by default. That’s pretty much all a tradition is. That’s where we are today. It is a tradition because the majority thinks it is. Regardless of the origin. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/71 "2013-11-06T23:29:51Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > This reminds me of an incident back in 2011. My battalion in Italy had been awarded a certain Navy Unit Commendation medal for their service in Iraq several years early. There was a huge ceremony for the award shortly before another deployment, this time to Afghanistan. After we all got back from deployment, it being near Christmas time and Military Ball season, we were all rushing around trying to get our dress uniforms squared away. The CSM, with guidance from the protocol office and concurrance from every 1SG and senior leader in the unit, was mandating that every Soldier in the BN have the newly awarded unit citation on their dress uniform. Afterall, it’s Army tradition to wear the units’ citations from engagements past, even if you were not present. Right? That’s obvious, and everyone knows that’s the rule. > It became a big pain in the butt because Clothing Sales was out of them, and ordering from online to Italy takes forever. > > There was much discussion about weather or not we could actually be forced to wear the medal if not in a formation. People went back and forth about it, but the 1SG had the CSM riding his ass, and it was clear that anyone showing up to a promotion board or something without that medal would be kicked out. > > I happened to discover that not only was it the case that we couldn’t be ordered to wear the medal, in fact, wearing that medal was unauthorized. Everyone just assumed that Army tradition is to wear the unit’s citations. People were so sure that this is true for all unit awards, that apparantly, nobody bothered to check. It wasn’t until a promotion board months later in which one of my Soldiers arrived without wearing the medal that the Battalion policy was changed. The CSM had me, the sponsor, standing before him at the promotion board explaining why exactly I told my Soldier not to wear the medal. I matter of factly said that the medal is not authorized for wear. He said, “Well we are all wearing it!”. > I said, “With all due respect, Sergeant Major, the members of the board are all wrong.” I still remember the look on the CSM’s face and that of all four 1SGs sitting on the board. We talked back and forth as I explained myself and the relevant part of AR 670-1. He then stated, “Well if you’re right, this is a big deal because people who are supposed to be smarter than us have said this is right.” He then told me that I would owe him and every 1SG there an email explaining what I had told them at the board, and they would need it by the end of the day. > By the next week, the entire battalion policy was updated to reflect proper regulatory guidance. Oh, and my Soldier passed the board. > > The point of that whole story is that the presence of all those people “who should know” does not sway me one bit or convince me that they actually do. Same goes for the constant incorrect wearing of the Shore Patrol brassard in the US Navy. I can’t count how often I’ve heard that the brassard is to be worn on the left sleeve so as to cover the rate insignia. In fact, the Navy Uniform Regulations specifically state the brassard is to be worn over the right sleeve. Plenty of people think they know something’s correct. Problem: they’re not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/72 "2013-11-06T23:59:50Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > My main point (that I may have pounded into the dirt too much already) is that if something is believed and followed as tradition by an organization for many many decades, it becomes tradition by default. I agree with this general statement. My position is that it _hasn’t_ actually been _followed_, only _believed_. I think the scenario is so unlikely, and so has been so rare over the last century, that the talk and belief has far trumped the actual thing itself. And since the belief, when there is evidence of the belief prior to 2006 or so, appears to be that saluting the Medal of Honor was required due to regulation or protocol–not due to tradition. Am I making since at all there? Since people believed it was regulation, that makes it misinformation. What we have is evidence of people believing this was regulation. Years of rumor and ignorance does not make something a tradition _unless_ it is actually followed up with enough of the actual action to make it a tradition. And there has simply not been enough instances where a uniformed, active duty enlisted person wearing his MOH was face to face with a uniform officer or other enlisted person and then was subsequently saluted by the same. If there had been enough instances that occurred, and had the salute actually happened then it could be considered a tradition. But I don’t think it’s happened much at all. If the MOH wearer is a retired veteran, then yes that has surely happened. But as I said before, that has happend a hundred times more with the veteran _not_ wearing an MOH as well. Even in the absence of enough actual, real-life occurrences, this would still fit the classification as a tradition had, when it was discussed, the actual belief was that it is a tradition, and had it should happen due to the reverence and respect for the wearer, then I would say that yes it is a tradition now. However, that _has not_ been the belief. The belief has been that it is required by regulation or some protocol and that failure to do it would lead to some sort of punishment. That kind of falsity, even if it is repeated for years and believed by so many, does not make something a tradition. Not unless there has been an overwhelming display of it actually occurring, which there has not. There has only been minimal evidence of the false belief (belief that it is a regulation). With that said, I think we are generally at an agreement thread-wide, that one Soldier saluting another Soldier or veteran, regardless of rank, medals or position, to show extreme gratitude, reverence or respect, is not discouraged in the military service. This act can be considered a tradition. However, this tradition is not limited to, nor specific to a recipient of the MOH. And that is my point. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934/73 "2013-11-07T00:13:37Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > (that I may have pounded into the dirt too much already) Nothing wrong with that. Hashing out the details is the only way people can truly understand each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-on-medal-of-honor-customs-and-laws/672934.md?page=3)