Questions on the ailing Margaret Thatcher

If an international trade war is to be precipitated by the US tariffs on steel imports the consequences would be serious for us all. So would you prefer to see President Bush allow the evidently uncompetitive US steel industry to collapse rather than risk that consequence?

Artificially stimulated dependence on net imports of basic commodities makes no sense, and is unjustifiable on the grounds of a short-term balance sheet analysis. For a country like the UK to be coal importer is farcical, yet that is the result of the Thatcherite policy on coal, to quote just one example, and as has been said this policy was motivated entirely by political vindictiveness not economic wisdom.

It’s a common tactic for politicians generally to take credit for any improvement in the economy, but to blame any downturn on circumstances “beyond their control”. Thatcher was a master of this form of deceipt and you seem to have falled for it too.

As far as the destruction of the unions being a good thing, I would certainly not accept that. Abuse of union power was not a problem in itself but a symptom of an underlying problem – poor industrial relations and a persistent antagonism between unions and managers. This problem was certainly not solved by Thatcher, and still exists today to a large extent, so any success Britain achieves has been in spite of this shortcoming rather than due to its abolition.

In the days when I traveled to London on business, I never heard a negative word about MT, and one of my colleagues highly admired her.

The impression that she’s widely loathed comes from media bias, as usual. The leftist media don’t care what she accomplished. They will never forgive her for being conservative.

Er, that’s right. Everyone please ignore the 20 previous posts from those of us who live or have lived in Britain, obviously we don’t know what we’re talking about and december, who made a handful of business trips there does.

:rolleyes:

For the record, I was speaking strictly about december’s contention that popular anti-Thatcherism is nothing but a media myth.

Honestly, december, would it not occur to you that the people you met on your business trips were generally businessmen, who tended to benefit from Thatcher’s policies? And that their views may not be representative of the British populace as a whole, and of the working classes (who form a large percentage of that populace) in particular?

Regardless of whether you think Thatcher should be widely loathed, to claim that she isn’t is simple ignorance.

For the life of me, I can’t remember WHERE I saw it, and I will try to look it up, but didn’t Queen Elizabeth have some pretty critical things to say about Thatcher’s policies?

Hey december: Here’s a little experiment you can try next time you’re in UK-land to prove whether or not the loathing of Thatcher is a mirage created by “media bias”–

  1. Go into any pub outside of the City of London. (The City suits love Thatcher for the same reason Enron and oil execs love Shrub.)

  2. Sit down next to a random group of patrons and start enthusing about Thatcher’s economic policies, brilliant speech-making, etc.

  3. Check your watch to see how long it is before you’re physically assaulted.

One colleague, huh? Nothing anecdotal about that then. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you could explain why she never won even 50% of the vote in any election. Who were these voters, who ‘never said a negative word’ about her?

Ah, the leftist media of Britain. Well, unless you define leftist as ‘someone who disagrees with December’, I think you may need to check your facts.
Most of the media in Britain is owned by right-wing businessmen like Rupert Murdoch.

Perhaps you could actually read this thread to discover why Thatcher is so disliked (or are us British posters all in the leftist media?!).

Here are some reasons why you might feel at home with our Conservative party:

The average age of members of the Conservative party is about 65.
They are the Party with the least proportion of women members of Parliament (MP’s). (Undoubtedly you could substitute gay, minority or poor in that sentence).
The Carlton Club, a traditional home for Conservative MP’s, couldn’t admit Thatcher, since she was female. The club solved the embarrassment by letting the Prime Minister be an honorary ‘man’!
They talk opinionated rubbish (OK, I made that one up).

Another consequence of Thatcher’s monetorism policies is the short-term thinking that now pervades much of British industry and the City. ( “if it don’t produce a profit in six months scrap it” ). As a result much R and D was ditched together with technical and craft training schemes such as apprenticeships. Because of this there is now a skills shortage in what is left of British industry.
I work for a utility company that was privatised twelve years ago. Thirty thousand of my co-workers lost their jobs (including many with years of experiance) and all training schemes were stopped. Now , with people of my age coming up to retirement , the company has realised that the highly skilled work pool is diminishing and a lot of of training of new people has to be done to catch up on the lost years.

Of course, there’s no reason both can’t be true. Both were supply-siders, and while their brand of capitalism was probably better than than the previous policies when considered overall for the entire country, the benefits of it were spread extremely inequally. The rich got richer, and the poor didn’t screwed badly enough to equal a net loss altogether.

My quick synopsis would be that she brought much needed reform to Britain by screwing over the working class and enriching her cronies and other rich businessmen.

If it’s not competitive, it’s probably better for it to collapse. The problem is again the balancing of a net economic benefit against the localized economic disturbances.

I have only just started to calm down and hope I can be more rational about this person.

Lets get one or two details out of the way first.

MT was not the architect of her policies though she attempts to take the credit.She did modify things as time drew on and ultimately it was her self belief in her own righteousness and infallability that did for her.

The background to her policies actually lie in reports from the right-wing political theorist think tank called the Adam Smith Institute whose whole reason d’etre was the freeing up of markets by minimising the role of the state.
The origins of this philosophy came about during the reign of George III when free trade was almost unheard of, and led to a moribund economy, where to make money one had to belong to a certain self-interested group, which basically bribed legislators, rulers, and the tiny number of voters in order to make conditions more favourable to themselves.

This meant that true entrepreneurs were stifled.

I suppose the diametricly opposite group to the Adam Smith institue would be the Joseph Rowntree foundation which is particularly noted for its philanthropy, so if you wish to research both sides of this debate you will need to inform yourself on both viewpoints(isn’t the net just wonderful?)

The Adam Smith Institute came out with a report in the early '70’s which baldly stated that the then employment levels in the UK were too high and that this led to a shortage of labour at a reasonable price, which in turn made British industry less competitive.

Building on the whole of that report, economic theorists came up with a checklist of things to do to rectify and reform the British economy.
Chief among these was Sir Keith Joseph and to whom MT has acknowledged many times that she owes a great debt.

Why was the British economy in a stagnant state ?

Our inflation was high at the time, I remember annual rates above 10% and of course this led to increased wage demands, and to control it all interest rates were high which led in turn to higher wage demands.

For those not all that familiar with UK economics one should realise that as a nation we are obsessed with real estate, which means interest rates have an intimate effect on our daily lives, any changes to interest rates means that it affects what we have to spend quite dramatically and any reduction in disposible income means that home improvements, furniture sales etc are reduced, which then leads to unemployment.

Conservatives always blame the Labour party government of the day for this situation but in fact the '70’s demonstrated how impotent national governments actually were in the face of changing world market conditions.

It would not have mattered who was in power at the time of that last Labour government, our economy would have been in very poor condition, and ** the ** main reason for this were the sudden hikes in oil prices, not once but twice in a matter of a few of years.

These oil price rises hit the UK very hard, as an exporter of manufactured goods, our markets simply dried up and the cost of imports such as raw materials rose, oil production in the North Sea was still merely a dream.

The result was industrial unrest and an increase in our unemployment, our unions with their frankly undemocratic methods made things even worse.

Whenever such a situation arises people will vote for a leader who promises instant solutions, and MT did just that, but instant solutions and short term feel goodism always comes at a cost.
I shall stop here so that you can comment, this is only an introduction about the MT led government and to carry on would lead to a long and extremely dry post.

I will say that I actually truly believe that the miners union did have to be broken, they were without question a threat to our democracy by causing economic damge that led to the ousting of two governments and emergancy elections pluse HM QEII declaring a state of emergency and idssolving parliament before its term was completed.

This contention is both true and completely silly. First, by way of a reference point, Bill Clinton never won 50% of the vote either. Winning with less than 50% of the vote is quite common in systems with more than two parties. In the UK, the Liberal Democrats always poll respectably enough to prevent any party from winning 50% of the votes cast. In fact, no party, including Labour led by Tony Blair, has polled 50% of the votes cast in any election in the last 50 years or more.

Perhaps a brief historical synopsis will put Thatcher and her policies in perspective.

1974 Wilson (Labour) becomes prime minister

1976 Callaghan (Labour) becomes prime minister
In the autumn of this year, Britain’s economy come close to total collapse and Britain is forced to seek a loan from the IMF. By the autumn of 1977, unemployment reaches 1,600,000 and public spending has been drastically cut. By the winter of 1978, waives of strikes by unions demanding increased public spending, higher wages and job protection are paralyzing the country.

1979 Thatcher (Conservative) becomes prime minister
In response to growing economic chaos, Thatcher sets out to break the trade unions and put through conservative economic reforms intended to make the the British economy more competitive.

1982 Falklands war

1983 Parlimentary election, Conservatives returned.

1987 Parlimentary election, Conservatives returned.

1990 Thatcher resigns. John Major becomes prime minister

1992 Parlimentary election. Conservatives returned. John Major remains prime minister

1997 Blair (Labour) becomes prime minister

It’s apparent from this that 1) Thatcher didn’t make the conservatives “unelectable” as they remained in power for seven years after she resigned and 2) her economic policies weren’t some mean-spirited, cynical ploy to ensure that the rich got richer, they were a radical response to a radical situation. Moreover they were a necessary response.

Subsequent complaints about her style are not surprising. The kind of leader willing and able to make difficult and often, at least at the time, unpopular decisions in a time of crisis often becomes unpopular when the crisis is past. The very characteristics that make them such effective leaders when the chips are down become political liabilities in peace and prosperity.

Subsequent complaints? [Bangs head against wall] Were you alive during the 80s, “Truth Seeker”?

Your facts are correct, your conclusions not. I did refer to the foolishness of our electoral system. If the UK had proportional representation, extremists like Thatcher would never get elected.

As for your use of the phrase ‘subsequent complaints’ I am nearly speechless.
Did your research not turn up some of the nationwide protests during the miners strike? Have you not seen film of tens of thousands of protestors facing thousands of police at various locations? Did you not know about the protests over restrictions of civil liberties? (such as not allowing people to travel north from London if the police thought they might join picket lines).
Were you not aware of the strong feelings aroused by the sinking of the Belgrano? (I still remember Thatcher struggling desperately on TV when a housewife successfully challenged Thatcher’s version of events.)
How about the Poll Tax protests? Us Brits have tremendous respect for authority (e.g. we have unarmed police, an unelected Monarchy and a State Religion). It took a deep unease about Government policy to bring British city centres to a halt with protest marches.

I fully accept this applies (for example) to Winston Churchill during WW2. He sent men to fight and probably die (unquestionably a necessary evil), but was not considered the right man to lead the country in peace-time. Nevertheless Churchill is highly respected.
The difference with Thatcher’s reputation has been discussed already in the thread.
Although an equally strong leader as Churchill, most of her battles were unnecessary. Monetarism and the Poll Tax have been abandoned. The Falklands war was not to save millions of lives - instead it was about oil rights and useful propaganda. (It also led to her describing Pinochet as a wonderful ally to our country - sort of like trading Chilean lives for British votes).
The corruption did eventually make the Conservatives unelectable - because it took years to bring the court cases.

Ok.

I’m not going to go into what she inflicted upon my country.

I have two words

The Belgrano.
What the global economy needs to get out of its current funk is an event to get everyoen happy again.

Thatcher in a box would be the perfect event.

she can explain to the Argentinians that were killed on the Belgrano exactly what the difference between sailing towards and sailing away is, shortly before so goes to spend eternity on the Devils johnson.

From hells heart I stab at that woman.

There you go December, here is one person who HATES that poisonous old bag.

glee
Your specific question was, “Shouldn’t you refrain from extremist policies when you can’t even get a majority of votes cast?” The answer is a resounding “No.” If you believe that desperate times require desperate measures, you ought to try and implement those measures to the best of your ability. If, ultimately, you can’t convince enough people to see it your way, you get voted out. That’s the way democracy works. Your suggestion that, since getting 50% of votes cast in the UK is a practical impossibility, British goverments in the 80’s should have contented themselves with re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, would have turned the UK into Argentina, or worse.

I’m not quite sure what your problem is with my reference to subsequent complaints is. There were certain segments of society that have always hated Thatcher. She did, after all, set out with the specific intent to crush the trade unions and the “loony left.” She suceeded and the losers of the class war were, and are, quite bitter about it. This makes her a polarizing figure. It doesn’t make her wildly unpopular. Thatcher led the Conservatives to three election victories over a ten-year period and the Conservatives managed another election victory after dumping her. Someone must have had at least some respect for Thatcher and her reforms.

The ultimate proof of Thatcher’s legacy is that Labour was unelectable until they adopted the substance of her reforms. Blair’s public persona is much different than Thatcher’s. Nonetheless, on matters of policy, Blair could have cheefully functioned as member of Thatcher’s cabinet.

By the standards of the UK in 1979, Thatcher was indeed an “extremist.” By the standards of 2002, the reforms she introduced in the early 80’s are uncontroversial. Doing a bit of browsing, I found this quote which sums up her legacy. Whether you like or dislike Thatcher, it’s hard to disagree with.

**

I get annoyed when journalists and others say that “Whatever you thought about her policies, you have to respect her as a leader…” yadda yadda. That’s crap. As is any reference to people being scared of her. No, in Scotland, and I would imagine many other parts of the UK, the old bitch is utterly loathed and despised. Even many of her own supporters in Scotland couldn’t stand her as a person. We would not piss on her if… [Odoreida led away for sedation]

The woman’s a bit of a legend at my school. First of all, there were many many protestors mostly demonstrating against her policies towards Ireland (which I don’t feel qualified to speak on myself) and the civil rights violations in resonse to the threat of IRA terrorism.

She referred to former president Reagan as “Ronny”, repeatedly. There’s something… off about that that, even if you liked the guy.

She also engaged in a bit of racial stereotype and delivered a speech that was, apparently, notably free of content of interest. Thatvher’s become a “how not to” example for rhetoric studies at this institution.

G. Odoreida makes one pretty good point about Thatcher and her relationship to Scotland (and Wales for that matter). Prior to 1979, the Conservatives were running Labour fairly close in Scotland and Wales. After 1991, they were behind the LibDems in both places–and now, in Scotland, they’re probably the fourth party behind the SNP as well. Thatcher’s unpopularity is casting a really long shadow there.

A side note: one of my room-mates at Oxford was a Welsh Conservative (“Our constituency meetings are pretty quiet,” he said). Even he didn’t like Thatcher. “There’s only one really bad obscenity in Welsh,” he claimed, “Thatcher.”

And exactly why did they dump her? Because they were convinced (rightfully IMHO) that they wouldn’t manage another victory if they didn’t. I completely fail to see how this registers as a point in her favour.

Incidentally I saw a couple of my Scottish mates last night and told them about this thread, their reaction to the contention that Thatcher isn’t widely loathed was to laugh hysterically. I’m informed in all seriousness that there will be partying on the streets of Scotland on the day she finally kicks it.

Menocchio, I’d say the worst aspect of Thatcher’s Irish policy was her absolute refusal to even consider the legitimate grievances of the Catholic community in the North. Thatcher approached the conflict with the view that all of its problems would be solved simply by putting away as many terrorists as possible. The underlying issues that led so many people to become or to support or sympathise with terrorists simply weren’t of any concern to her.

If you take it in context of the whole paragraph, it makes more sense. I think the key word is subsequent.