# Questions regarding excommunication
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 4, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386 "2018-06-04T02:35:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 11
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/21 "2018-06-05T06:00:07Z")
I’ve seen this attributed to
> [@Thomas Aquinas](#):
>
> St. Thomas said—’ If no recourse can be had to authority to do justice on the usurper, he who slays him saves the country, and deserves a recompense.’
Henri IV of France was assassinated by a “fanatical catholic” after 15-20 attempts, mostly by Jesuits.
I think the Jesuits officially denied responsibility while not recognising Henry IV as King?
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### Author:  [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2018, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/22 "2018-06-14T08:15:41Z")
> [@Melbourne](#):
>
> I’ve seen this attributed to
>
> Henri IV of France was assassinated by a “fanatical catholic” after 15-20 attempts, mostly by Jesuits.
>
> I think the Jesuits officially denied responsibility while not recognising Henry IV as King?
Thanks you all. I’m still researching this question. I will get back to it.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [June 14, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/23 "2018-06-14T09:31:13Z")
> [@davidmich](#):
>
> But excommunicates were declared heretics by popes. Martin Luther was declared both.
Those are two different things. Being a murderer doesn’t make one a thief nor vice versa, but it is possible to be both a thief and a murderer.
> [@markn\_1](#):
>
> If I remember my catechism, only individuals can be excommunicated. Countries are interdicted, as **md2000** said.
“The country was excommunicated” is shorthand for “all its Christian inhabitants were excommunicated”. Countries don’t attend Mass. We also say that, for example, “Saint George is the patron saint of England” when officially he is “the patron Saint of the English people”.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/24 "2018-06-15T00:48:09Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> “The country was excommunicated” is shorthand for “all its Christian inhabitants were excommunicated”.
But was the penalty ever applied in this way?
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/25 "2018-06-15T14:14:41Z")
To Navarre twice; once directly from Rome (they eventually relented), once by the local Bishop (Rome smacked him).
We’re not stiff-necked, we just plan on doing what we plan on doing the way we plan on doing it, and anybody other than the Laws of Physics that wants to get in the way better have good medical.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/26 "2018-06-16T21:47:53Z")
> [@davidmich](#):
>
> But excommunicates were declared heretics by popes. Martin Luther was declared both. But again my question was what power the the pope had based on Roman Catholic law that allowed him to call for war against an excommunicate deposed monarch?
You’ve got it backwards. Martin Luther wasn’t a heretic because he was excommunicated. He was excommunicated for being a heretic.
(There were other crimes that the church levelled against him, I believe, but that was the big one)
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### Author:  [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/27 "2018-06-16T22:39:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> You’ve got it backwards. Martin Luther wasn’t a heretic because he was excommunicated. He was excommunicated for being a heretic.
>
> (There were other crimes that the church levelled against him, I believe, but that was the big one)
This is a direct quote from the Bull “Decet Romanum” issued by Leo X
“This same Martin and the rest are excommunicate, accursed, condemned, heretics, hardened, interdicted, deprived of possessions and incapable of owning them, and so listed in the enforcement of these presents.”
[http://bookofconcord.org/decet-romanum.php](http://bookofconcord.org/decet-romanum.php)
We would make known to all the small store that Martin, his followers
and the other rebels have set on God and his Church by their obstinate
and shameless temerity. We would protect the herd from one infectious
animal, lest its infection spread to the healthy ones. Hence we lay
the following injunction on each and every patriarch, archbishop,
bishop, on the prelates of patriarchal, metropolitan, cathedral and
collegiate churches, and on the religious of every Order-even the
mendicants-privileged or unprivileged, wherever they may be stationed:
that in the strength of their vow of obedience and on pain of the
sentence of excommunication, they shall, if so required in the
execution of these presents, publicly announce and cause to be
announced by others in their churches, that this same Martin and the
rest are excommunicate, accursed, condemned, heretics, hardened,
interdicted, deprived of possessions and incapable of owning them, and
so listed in the enforcement of these presents.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/28 "2018-06-16T23:23:06Z")
> [@davidmich](#):
>
> What provision in Church law gave a pope the power to make war on a deposed excommunicate monarch?
In John’s time? I don’t believe there was a precedent. Later on after the Protestant Reformation I think things may have changed, but in the Middle Ages, I don’t recall any. Besides, again, it would depend on the reason for excommunication.
Perhaps (and this is my own personal guess), John felt that because he was so hated, he had very few supporters. And the fact that the Church had also damned him probably made him feel really abandoned?
> [@davidmich](#):
>
> This is a direct quote from the Bull “Decet Romanum” issued by Leo X
> “This same Martin and the rest are excommunicate, accursed, condemned, heretics, hardened, interdicted, deprived of possessions and incapable of owning them, and so listed in the enforcement of these presents.”
>
> [http://bookofconcord.org/decet-romanum.php](http://bookofconcord.org/decet-romanum.php)
>
> We would make known to all the small store that Martin, his followers
> and the other rebels have set on God and his Church by their obstinate
> and shameless temerity. We would protect the herd from one infectious
> animal, lest its infection spread to the healthy ones. Hence we lay
> the following injunction on each and every patriarch, archbishop,
> bishop, on the prelates of patriarchal, metropolitan, cathedral and
> collegiate churches, and on the religious of every Order-even the
> mendicants-privileged or unprivileged, wherever they may be stationed:
> that in the strength of their vow of obedience and on pain of the
> sentence of excommunication, they shall, if so required in the
> execution of these presents, publicly announce and cause to be
> announced by others in their churches, that this same Martin and the
> rest are excommunicate, accursed, condemned, heretics, hardened,
> interdicted, deprived of possessions and incapable of owning them, and
> so listed in the enforcement of these presents.
They were declaring he was guilty of heresy. Not that, “you are a heretic, because you are excommunicated”. Heresy was one of his sins. His preachings were not in accord with Catholic doctrine, therefore, they were considered heresy. Heresy is one of the grounds for [excommunication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_(Catholic_Church)).
If I’m excommunicated because say, I get an abortion, that doesn’t automatically make me a heretic, because abortion isn’t the same thing as [heresy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy#Catholicism). Heresy is only one of the offenses you can be excommunicated for. (And there’s a whole shitload of them)
In [John’s case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John,_King_of_England#Dispute_with_the_Pope), it was more about politics. Nothing to do with John not following Catholic teachings, which was what Martin Luther was accused of.
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### Author:  [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/29 "2018-06-17T15:50:21Z")
After reading up more on the subject, I’m satisfied that the Church did not sanction the killing of King John following his excommunication. What prompted my question was the fact that killing heretics extra-judiciously was an academic point during the Middle Ages.
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### Author:  [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/30 "2018-06-17T15:54:23Z")
> [@davidmich](#):
>
> After reading up more on the subject, I’m satisfied that the Church did not sanction the killing of King John following his excommunication. What prompted my question was the fact that killing heretics extra-judiciously was an academic point during the Middle Ages.
King John was not a heretic but he was an excommunicate. I was also interested in finding out if excommunicates could be killed extra-judiciously with impunity. I’m satisfied that the Catholic Church did not sanction such killings.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-excommunication/815386/31 "2018-06-18T00:06:21Z")
> [@davidmich](#):
>
> After reading up more on the subject, I’m satisfied that the Church did not sanction the killing of King John following his excommunication. What prompted my question was the fact that killing heretics extra-judiciously was an academic point during the Middle Ages.
Whew.
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