# Questions regarding the Harry Potter - Interaction of the Wizarding vs Muggle World **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [June 30, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369 "2021-06-30T22:05:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/81 "2021-07-03T07:54:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > My impression was that wizard sports like the quidditch games and the Triwizard Tournament were insanely dangerous for no apparent reason. > > In fact, a lot of stuff seemed dangerous for no reason. Hogwarts seemed to have a lot of “don’t go into these rooms or you might die”. That’s another thing that HPMOR covers. It says that wizards and witches are just generally sturdier than normal humans, and that medical magic makes things even less dangerous. Not Quidditch shows up much. Nor dueling. Those still occur, but the focus is on the mock battles between the three generals Harry, Hermione, and Draco. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/82 "2021-07-03T08:06:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Um, why would we be _twitching_ ? I was trying to make a larger point, and may have been inappropriately specific there. Mea culpa. I thought Rowling actually did quite a good job of illustrating how fascists take control of democratic governments, and that the details of the complaint actually pointed out how well she had done it. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/83 "2021-07-03T08:15:30Z")
She did post an official answer to that sort of question: > [@](#): > > I have been asked all sorts of questions about Squibs since I first introduced the concept in ‘Chamber of Secrets’. A Squib is almost the opposite of a Muggle-born wizard: he or she is a non-magical person born to at least one magical parent. Squibs are rare; magic is a dominant and resilient gene. > > Squibs would not be able to attend Hogwarts as students. They are often doomed to a rather sad kind of half-life (yes, you should be feeling sorry for Filch), as their parentage often means that they will be exposed to, if not immersed in, the wizarding community, but can never truly join it. Sometimes they find a way to fit in; Filch has carved himself a niche at Hogwarts and Arabella Figg operates as Dumbledore’s liaison between the magical and Muggle worlds. Neither of these characters can perform magic (Filch’s Kwikspell course never worked), but they still function within the wizarding world because they have access to certain magical objects and creatures that can help them (Arabella Figg does a roaring trade in cross-bred cats and Kneazles, and if you don‘t know what a Kneazle is yet, shame on you). Incidentally, Arabella Figg never saw the Dementors that attacked Harry and Dudley, but she had enough magical knowledge to identify correctly the sensations they created in the alleyway. ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/84 "2021-07-03T09:07:24Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > She did post an official answer to that sort of question Oh, indeed. There’s a lot of official content added post-book, Pottermore, the side books, etc; I just don’t care about anything besides the first 7 books. Thanks for the quote though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/85 "2021-07-03T12:40:14Z")
Or then there’s the way that the Dresden Files books handle the “Muggle” ignorance of the magical world: There are no laws at all against wizards or magical creatures revealing themselves. Most of the wizards consider it distasteful and low-class for Dresden to openly advertise himself as a wizard, but there are no repercussions for it. Ignorance of magic is entirely enforced by the ignorant: It turns out that humans are naturally very good at believing what we want to believe, and conveniently ignoring what we don’t want to believe. But those few who do genuinely develop an interest in the supernatural world find it surprisingly easy to find information about it. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/86 "2021-07-03T13:33:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ignorance of magic is entirely enforced by the ignorant: It turns out that humans are naturally very good at believing what we want to believe, and conveniently ignoring what we don’t want to believe. But those few who do genuinely develop an interest in the supernatural world find it surprisingly easy to find information about it. That sort of solution turns up in more than a few urban fantasy works, and a lot of horror or horror-adjacent works. I’ve always thought it didn’t make any sense. In the real world, a _lot_ of people believe in ghosts and angels and cryptids and UFOs and psychic abilities and all sorts of other supernatural stuff. Wicca and magick and other sorts of spellcasting aren’t as common, but there are still quite a few people that very clearly _believe_ they can cast spells. In a lot of areas of the world outside of the U.S. and the UK, magic is a pretty well-accepted, mainstream part of life. There are multiple “reality” TV shows about most of these topics. Most people _don’t_ deny the reality of the supernatural. I think _Dead Like Me_, a series about grim reapers living - well, undeading, I guess - among mortals, did have an episode where they dealt with this. One of the Reapers reveals his real nature to a goth girl he’s interested in, and she promptly freaks out. Then there’s some handwaving about how a lot people _think_ they believe in weird, dark stuff, but when they’re confronted by the actual physical reality of it, they can’t handle it. Which sort of worked for that series, but they also had the dodge that most mortals simply can’t perceive most of the supernatural world. Even if it requires some handwaving and involves some internal contradictions, “veil” solutions like the ones in the Percy Jackson series mentioned upthread allow me to suspend my disbelief a _lot_ more effectively. Especially since the “people see what they want to see” solution is effectively telling me I’m personally stupid, dull, incurious, and willfully blind. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/87 "2021-07-03T15:10:58Z")
Well, in the Dresden books, there’s a fair amount of chaff to sort through, at least: Early on in the series, when he was spending more time working for hire than saving the world, a large chunk of his cases were investigating a haunted house or ancient curse or whatever, and he says that about 90% of them aren’t actually supernatural. So someone who’s casually into the occult is probably still mostly off-base, especially if they don’t have the magical senses to tell at a glance when there’s genuine magic present. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/88 "2021-07-03T15:12:59Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > That sort of solution turns up in more than a few urban fantasy works, and a lot of horror or horror-adjacent works. I’ve always thought it didn’t make any sense. In the real world, a _lot_ of people believe in ghosts and angels and cryptids and UFOs and psychic abilities and all sorts of other supernatural stuff. Wicca and magick and other sorts of spellcasting aren’t as common, but there are still quite a few people that very clearly _believe_ they can cast spells. In a lot of areas of the world outside of the U.S. and the UK, magic is a pretty well-accepted, mainstream part of life. There are multiple “reality” TV shows about most of these topics. > > Most people _don’t_ deny the reality of the supernatural. And yet, no matter how many people insist that such things are real, there’s **always** some person like James Randi who makes a highly-successful career out of debunking their claims. The main-stream media is unanimous in quietly snickering at claims of “little green men,” etc. The government, to the extent that official notice is taken at all, steadfastly claims there’s nothing to it. No matter how wide-spread belief in such things is, there’s always a low-level but pervasive feeling in society that no rational person would believe in such things. And anybody who makes specific claims, such as seeing a UFO up close, is **always** mocked and scorned. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/89 "2021-07-03T16:13:11Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > And yet, no matter how many people insist that such things are real, there’s **always** some person like James Randi who makes a highly-successful career out of debunking their claims. James “The Amazing” Randi made a highly successful career out of being a magician. He had a sideline in debunking paranormal claims, which _cost_ him money. The only skeptic I can think of off-hand who actually has made a true career out of it, as his primary source of income, is Michael Shermer. The number of “professional” skeptics is _vastly_ outnumbered by the number of professional psychics, ghost hunters, paranormal writers, and others on the “woo” side. > [@Bootb](#): > > The main-stream media is unanimous in quietly snickering at claims of “little green men,” etc. The government, to the extent that official notice is taken at all, steadfastly claims there’s nothing to it. Have you been following the media coverage of “UAPs” at all over the last couple of years? The reporting, including at such bastions of the mainstream media as _The New York Times_, has been largely credulous. It’s only been in the last few weeks that’s there’s been any sort of push-back in the mainstream media. And any number of U.S. Senators and other prominent politicians and commentators have pushed for “disclosure” and investigation into the “phenomenon”. The official Pentagon UAP report that was just released hardly amounted to a steadfast claim that “there’s nothing to it” - it explicitly recommended significantly more resources to study “it”. It’s true the report wasn’t the “disclosure” the Ufology community has been demanding and/or anticipating for decades, but it’s been spun by many of them as an official admission. > [@Bootb](#): > > No matter how wide-spread belief in such things is, there’s always a low-level but pervasive feeling in society that no rational person would believe in such things. I don’t think that feeling is anything like as widespread and pervasive as you’re making it out to be. Take a look at [this survey from Chapman University of Americans in 2018:](https://blogs.chapman.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2018/10/2018-Fear-Campaign-Paranormal-Bar-Graph-1-768x593.jpg) [![](https://blogs.chapman.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2018/10/2018-Fear-Campaign-Paranormal-Bar-Graph-1-768x593.jpg) ](https://blogs.chapman.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2018/10/2018-Fear-Campaign-Paranormal-Bar-Graph-1-768x593.jpg) And this sort of idea is also extremely American/Eurocentric. Astrology is part of mainstream discourse in India. Feng shui is a mainstream element of architecture in much of East Asia. “Witches” are being murdered in some areas of Africa. > [@Bootb](#): > > And anybody who makes specific claims, such as seeing a UFO up close, is **always** mocked and scorned. Or given a book contract and a publicity tour. But beyond all _that_, in the context of the fictional worlds we’re discussing, this stuff is _provably real_. Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge would have been collected within days. _Paranormal Activity_ and it’s ilk wouldn’t be low-budget movies, they’d be high-profile documentaries. As many, many others have pointed out, as high-resolution digital cameras have become ubiquitous, we’ve gotten definitive evidence of police brutality and casual racism in the U.S., but not of ghosts, UFOs, and bigfoot. In a world where ghosts are demonstrably real, and 58% of Americans already believe in them, how can “people see what they want to see” _possibly_ be a reasonable explanation for why the existence of ghosts isn’t just an accepted element of the world? ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/90 "2021-07-03T17:35:18Z")
If you haven’t read it yet, you probably will enjoy reading the fanfic [“The Muggle Way” by justaguy aka imjustaguy](https://www.tthfanfic.org/Story-4652/justaguy+The+Muggle+Way.htm). It touches on a lot of the same points you outlined in your post, with the addition of it also being a crossover with BtVS. I’d be interested in reading more good fanfic that shows smart muggles using the power and resources available to governments to go after Voldemort. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/91 "2021-07-03T17:45:33Z")
> [@omenran](#): > > Filch was a squib, a person unable to practice magic born into a wizarding family. Those usually make a transfer to a life in the Muggle world- one of the Dursley’s neighbors is another one. All the courses and things Filch buys are probably just scams. It’s been a long time since I read the books and then watched the movies; which Dursley neighbor was identified as a squib? And which novel was this in? ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/92 "2021-07-03T17:59:35Z")
[Arabella Figg](https://harry-potter-compendium.fandom.com/wiki/Arabella_Figg), as mentioned in DRPK’s post up a few replies. She appears briefly in Order of the Phoenix. Another name mentioned very briefly is Marius Black, who was also a squib and was disowned by the Black family. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2021, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/93 "2021-07-05T02:55:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So my main question is what happened after Voldermort’s forces started opening attacking the Muggle world (starting with collapsing London’s Millennial Bridge in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince? Did Muggles just assume that was just a freak natural phenomenon (in which case…what’s the point)? The authorities blamed it on a unexpected swaying resonance caused by footsteps of the people crossing the bridge, which caused it to shake and twist and collapse. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2021, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/94 "2021-07-05T03:10:56Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I enjoyed Rowling’s stories, and I don’t demand a fully-realized, coherent world. But Jim Butcher has done a better job of thinking about the way magic works in the Dresdenverse, and when it doesn’t. There’s a scene in one of his short stories when a vanload of wizard-wannabes shows up at Harry Dresden’s house to take revenge on him for messing up their black magic. The leader declares, “Prepare to defend yourself!” Harry shrugs and pulls out his .44 revolver. “Ummm…what are you doing?” “I’m fixing to defend myself.” There is a lot of urban fantasy that plays with this trope - Dresden Files, Pax Arcana, The Rivers Of London, Alex Verus. The end result of putting modern weapons on an equal footing with magic spells is that you end up with overwhelming military force being a critical part of any magical event, and subsequent firefights and piles of expendable mercenary bodies that need just as much covering up as the use of magic itself. People might not believe in magic or monsters, but they are going to a little worked up about black-clad mercenaries in tactical gear lighting up central London or waterside Chicago … ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/95 "2021-07-06T20:02:03Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > You hit a ball back and forth, and the one that misses loses a point. très simple. Now the scoring, sure.15-30-40-win, that’s odd, but it isn’t “score all you want, but whoever catches the snitch wins.” What a dumb game, on the ground or on brooms. The scoring in tennis is just four points a game, or whomever is up by two. The “40-30-15-love” thing is an odd little terminology quirk but it’s really just up to four points as long as you win by two, no more complex than that. You could just count zero-one-two-three-win and change nothing. Tennis scoring is perfectly sensible. > [@asterion](#): > > Rowling is not a good enough writer to expand her scope beyond “Chosen One and friends at school” to a well realized world where the ideas she used early on are now causing issues with the greater world building. J.K. Rowling is actually quite a good writer at what the original book was supposed to be. The explosion of the Harry Potter universe was, obviously, not part of any well scoped out plan; it just took off and she understandably kept writing stuff as they kept handing her increasingly gigantic bags of money. If you go back and read “Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone,” it’s an excellent kids’ book and a fine standalone story with room for sequels. The book is perfectly written for its intended audience - children. If you’re ten years old, it’s absolutely first rate not because ten year olds aren’t smart, but because Rowling concentrates on what ten year olds identify with. Look all good stories, it’s about how you feel. In a re-read you might be surprised how much of the book is preoccupied with Harry’s fear of rejection and failing to belong. He is a kid who belongs nowhere, an outsider, a feeling all kids go through. He is unwanted and powerless. He seems to have no friends and until he learns he is a wizard, he is forgettable, without any interesting skills. Adults either don’t like him or they are mysterious and don’t tell him the full truth about anything. All kids feel that way sometimes. Hogwarts is a fantasy of both power (“you’re a wizard, Harry!”) and belonging; suddenly, out of nowhere, someone wants him around. Then he is faced with the periodic possibility that they won’t want him around anymore, and his fear of that is positively palpable. He longs for acceptance and companionship, and ultimately his big decision is whether to do the right thing in going after the macguffin, which risks expulsion, which he seems to fear more than physical harm. The book ticks all the boxes of the ten-year-old kid who feels like they don’t have friends and they’re different and rejected, which at some point is ALL ten-year-olds. Rowling just absolutely hits that right in the bullseye, again and again. Then after that book suddenly it’s about having to build the world exponentially and it becomes about making it appeal to adults. No one who ever lived could have pulled it off with anywhere near the skills with which the first book was pulled off. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369/96 "2021-07-06T20:23:45Z")
I don’t think we’re really disagreeing. I agree, the first book especially caught on for all the reasons you said. All I’m saying is that a lot of the “funny parts” of the world building–the weird primary number monetary system, the cluelessness of wizards regarding muggles, even the tiny amount of students at Hogwarts–is fine when it’s a book about a lonely boy and his new, somewhat misfit friends. You’re right, Philosopher’s Stone is a fine children’s book. Heck, I totally thought she nailed book five with Harry as an angry fifteen year old. His frustrations with the adults in the world were right on and readers easily sympathized because we knew he was right. But between the change in readers (it’s not the first YA book series to be picked up later by adults, but it might be the biggest phenomenon I can think of) and the increase in scope, the cracks show. You’re right, there might not be an author alive who could have handled that transition, especially with the strictures placed on the series. She went big, with implications for all of Britain, at least magical Britain (and one wonders what the interaction between Europe, the US, and the UK would be like if Voldemort had won) and the bigger the society got and the more “sophisticated” the readers got the more questions that could be asked about the society. Nobody asks questions about the effects of having a specie based monetary system with no known equivalent of our modern economic system when the scene is Harry in a massive vault with the equivalent of Scrooge McDuck’s money bin left for him. These all get asked later by jackasses like me, trying to poke holes in the world building. But to me, even the things she actually wrote tend to feel flat as the world expands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/questions-regarding-the-harry-potter-interaction-of-the-wizarding-vs-muggle-world/945369.md?page=4)