Questions regarding the Harry Potter - Interaction of the Wizarding vs Muggle World

Cafe Society
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Before you all TL;DR this post, I recommend Potterless podcast which begins as a guy reads Harry Potter for the first time at 25, it’s pretty funny and takes a lightly critical look at a lot of this.

From what’s shown in the books, you work for the Ministry of Magic, Hogwarts, Gringots or have your own business in Diagon Alley, Nocturne Ally or Hogsmead. It’s inferable that you can also work at other wizarding schools, professional Quidditch teams, or other governments. The Night Bus is probably also government run, but I don’t think it’s clear.

I feel like Book 1 was ok as a self-contained story. Book 2 is where it falls off the rails and while a skeleton of a plot holds the series together, most of it is lazy trash with a few good paragraphs. Of course if you’re a young child inspired by the books you can draw out a lot more meaning than I think was intentionally put in.

The books take place in the early to mid 90s. Where cell phones were not common or covering as much area. Also, wizards are comically inept with technology. (Except when they’re not? The telephone booth entrances to the Ministry imply someone had/has knowledge of some things.)

As I recall, some locks can’t be opened with the charm, Hermione fails on a couple locks, and Harry can’t open the fake locket either.

I think that using Goblins who speak Gobledygook for bankers, is much more obvious as a stereotype, and I don’t personally have the same linkages with gnomes. (D&D, World of Warcraft, David the Gnome)

It’s not said directly, but assumed that Voldemort’s killing curse bounced off Baby Harry and hit Voldemort, destroying his body. Which is why he suddenly disappeared that night.

They were busy with Grindelwald, who was Voldemort of the previous generation. A summertime friend(and possible lover) of Dumbledore. Who eventually lost a duel to Dumbledore and was locked away in his own fortress. Voldemort makes a visit late in the books.

Well, it’s not mentioned much, and no details, but there is Hermione’s parents.

How about no stoppage of play when Harry’s arm gets broken? At least until a later book when another team calls a time-out. Not to mention how would a time out work with 3 magically moving balls? Or no net or spells to catch a player falling off their broom, as Harry does. Or that Griffindor loses because Harry passed out and they can’t have a substitute? Until the next book when Slytherin brings in a whole different team for a match. Or when Ron was keeper and doing so bad Harry was considering replacing him with the runner-up in the team tryouts. Or that at Hogwarts apparently there’s only a single games against each house, and maybe a final? Or that catching the Snitch is the only way to end the game. (Not win, since From in the World Cup catches the Snitch but his team still looses.)

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Did you follow my link? I wasn’t talking about fantasy references.

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I was only speaking to my own associations with Gnomes, not anything more general or historic. Using either is or would be problematic and offensive.

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I forgot what fictional sport it was talking about (Might have been Quidditch actually) but some humourous article on Cracked described the fictional sport as akin to “What if in NFL football if both sides had possession of the ball at the same time and offense and defense were also both all on the field at once”

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My impression was that wizard sports like the quidditch games and the Triwizard Tournament were insanely dangerous for no apparent reason.

In fact, a lot of stuff seemed dangerous for no reason. Hogwarts seemed to have a lot of “don’t go into these rooms or you might die”.

Again…fantasy wizard book for and about children…doesn’t really need to be completely logical and reasonable.

Also, I can’t imagine wizard-folk are completely ignorant of muggle customs and muggle-tech. Sure, maybe older generations of wizards who spend their entire lives at Hogwarts or similar institutions are. But people like Harry spend their summers in muggle homes. Harry was eleven before he knew he was a wizard. My four year old knows how a laptop and a smart phone works.

Hermione and Harry’s mom come from mixed-muggle families. That’s a common enough occurrence that’s it’s considered a “thing” in certain circles. So there is clearly a not insignificant amount of socialization between muggles and wizards. They have to meet somewhere. hard to do if muggles and wizards live in completely different societies all the time.

When wizards assemble for those multinational sporting events, their stadiums look like they hold tens of thousands (Quidditch Trillenium Stadium holds 100,000 according to the wiki). That implies to me that there are a shit-ton of wizarding folk in the world. More than could be supported by an economy based on teaching, working at the Ministry and small local businesses. Heck, enough of them live in and around London that they have their own designated track at Kings Cross Station. I’m sure some percentage of them don’t want to work as a shopkeep, private school teacher, or bureaucrat.

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I maintain that for every illogical thing about quidditch, there’s a real-world sport that has the same illogic to the same or greater degree. Is having a “separate game” (and it’s not really separate; the Seeker at least interacts with the Beaters) to end the game really more illogical than having the officials end the game when they figure it’s been about the right amount of time, more or less? Is quidditch the only violent, dangerous sport you’ve ever heard of? Do you know of any real-world sport without arcane rules on when substitutions are and are not allowed?

All sports are inherently illogical. We’re just used to the illogic of our muggle sports.

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There are quite a lot of us that think that aspect of soccer is stupid.* Come to think of it, for such a simple gqme, the rules really are kind of stupid. but not as stupid as having a soccer match and adding two guys chasing a robot ball around and through the middle of the pitch, running right through the game, and the guy that catches the ball gets 15 points for his team, and ends the game.

*Of course, there are gazillions more that don’t, but still…

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Wait … the guy with Alfred E. Newman as his avatar isn’t suggesting 43-man Squamish?

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My personal headcanon (which is I readily admit obviously not actually the case as it mixes two completely different IPs with no actual relationship):

Harry Potter’s world is an alternate version of the world of the table-top role-playing game, Mage: The Ascension. In HP’s world, the Adepts of Hermes absorbed all of the other magical traditions except the Technocracy, with whom they reached an accord. The Technocracy has free reign over Sleepers aka Muggles, while Mages, aka Wizards and Witches, are allowed to carry on in their own bubble realities unmolested.

Muggles aren’t aware of the secret magic in the world because they can’t become aware. They’re blind to magic, and consensus reality simply overwrites and erases most magic. Moreover, “blatant” magic that violates consensus reality creates backlash that’s extremely dangerous for the Mage who performs it.

Magic works perfectly well in the reality bubbles of the Wizarding World, but modern “technology”, which is actually a different form of magic, is unreliable. Meanwhile, blatant magic in the Muggle world either gets erased by the consensus reality controlled by the Technocracy, or creates Paradox which is dangerous for both sides. It’s in everyone’s interests to keep the two worlds mostly separate from the other.

Voldemort wants to blow up this careful detente, and destroy the Technocracy. He doesn’t want to Awaken the Sleepers, though, he just wants to replace the Technocracy as their rulers.

At least at the beginning, at least some of his followers probably didn’t realize his true goals, and joined him out of genuine idealism, thinking they were rebelling against a stultifying order that acquiesced in keeping the Sleepers subjugated. It was only later, after they were too deep in to get out, that they realized just how ruthless he was, and just how awful and selfish his true goals were. I think Severus Snape was one of those. Some other Mages, of course, shared his goals of gaining power over the hapless Sleepers (the Malfoys seemed to be among those).

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I agree that it doesn’t make sense, but the books are written otherwise. Arthur Weasley is in, if not leading the Department of Misuse of Muggle Artifacts and has frequent if not daily interaction with mundane objects, yet he has almost no comprehension of how they work. A later retcon or addition made by Rowling is the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy, which dates the division of the wizarding world from the Muggle one, and is why they use quills instead of pencils and such. (He also can’t understand Muggle money and Muggle clothing also seems incomprehensible to wizards)

The same goes for the Wizarding economy, all that’s shown doesn’t seem to be able to function. I prefer to say that’s because it was poorly and lazily written, since it also can’t keep keep quidditch consistent from book to book much less make sense of how the world could or would function. It doesn’t seem to keep millions of kids and former kids from enjoying the books and setting, so I suppose it’s all rather moot.

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I think Rowling is a horrible author, especially as it come to building a consistent world but I do think she gave us enough hints that make the wizard/muggle separation at least plausable. The wizards have chosen to isolate themselves from the Muggle world as much as possible I’m thinking similar to the Amish or Mennonites. Most are in their own community but even outside of their community they’re not necessarily hanging out with “English”. I think people’s reaction to Mr. Weasley and his job is a good indicator but also notice that while Harry, Ron and Hermione are always at the Weasley’s (and we know why they don’t hang out at the Dursley’s) they are never over at the Granger’s. And speaking of Hermione’s parents, they are completely fish out of water when they are at the Quidditch World Cup so clearly they are not hanging out with wizards now. And yes they know about the wizarding world but what are they going to do or say to their muggle friends? “We’re so proud of Hermione. She’s the most capable witch at a school you’ve never heard of.”

In fact I really think the wizard/muggle separation is forced by the wizards and over time has become their culture. Think about taking your diploma from Hogwarts to a Muggle job interview. It would be like, “WTF is divination and DAtDA? Where’s your math and English courses?” As a wizard you’re forced to only work in the wizard world. And given your experience growing up as a wizard separated from the muggle world, what is your common interest to be friends with a muggle?
“We can’t believe we made 7 no trump in our bridge club last week. What did you do Cynocephus?”
“After hunting wukalars we floo to Manchester to watch a Quidditch match. So you’re in a club that builds bridges?”
“Yeeeeeaaaah. 7 no trump. Let me refill your drink.”

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You’re right, while almost every wizard we meet - even quite serious ones - is quite clueless another muggles, SOMEONE at the Ministry must know what they’re doing.

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Yes. It’s more illogical. Far more illogical. WAY more illogical. INCOMPREHENSIBLY more illogical. It’s just not a reasonable comparison. At all.

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I’ve only read the first Harry Potter book and seen several of the movies, but I’ve read a few of the “Percy Jackson” books, and I always figured without much thought that something akin to the Percy Jackson world “Mist” was going on in the Harry Potter world.

In other words, some sort of low-level magical concealment that makes magical stuff appear less magical and more mundane to muggles, or just escape their notice in the first place, except when they’re directly confronted with it, like Harry in the snake exhibit. Platform 9 3/4 is a good example- it’s there, but nobody sees it, nor do they notice people going straight into a wall.

That said, there are a LOT of holes; like you say, being a wizard and having a foot in the muggle world could make you very muggle rich and/or powerful. And a lot of questions about the wizarding world and how it operates. Does every wizard have serious powers? Or are some just really low power wizards who can maybe open a beer bottle magically, but that’s about all they can manage? What do they do? Are they the wizarding garbagemen? Wizarding writers?

I kind of doubt Rowling really thought all this out; it didn’t really affect the plot of the books, but it’s something that the rest of us eventually do wonder about.

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Some things that really kind of bugged me about the HP books:

  • Why on earth would the school leave a book on how to make horocruxes in the library? Isn’t that like having a book on how to make a meth lab?

  • Do certain muggle laws apply to wizards (like constitutional ones, I guess)? For example, in the U.S., I imagine you couldn’t use Verita serum or the Imperius curse in a trial since it would violate the fifth amendment against self-incrimination.

  • If Tonks and Teddy were metamorphamaguses, wouldn’t the school have to worry about them going to Hogsmeade and trying to buy booze and cigarettes?

  • Does the Queen know about the wizarding world? Have there ever been any wizards or witches from royal families, or nobility?

  • Do wizards pay taxes to the Ministry? Do they vote?

  • Why did the Fat Friar become a ghost – if he was a priest, why didn’t he move on? Or did he consider it his duty to stay at Hogwarts? Does he perform Mass for Catholic students?

  • Are there vets for magical creatures? What about zoos? Also, if you have to put an animal to sleep, is the Killing Curse okay?

  • Aren’t love potions technically rape?

  • When Quirrell let a troll loose into the dungeon, wouldn’t it have made more sense to keep all students in Great Hall?

  • Why didn’t Harry & the rest of the Quidditch team need to try out again until the 6th year?

  • Why didn’t Ron know about the Sorting Hat? He hadn’t heard about it from the rest of his family? And surely it was mentioned in “Hogwarts: A History”?

  • I noticed that there’s a lot of cruelty to animals, like vanishing kittens and stuff? Are students allowed to refuse that kind of thing?

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All the Americans who read this are twitching. Please be kind.

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Rowling did, in fact, write about a few characters that were connected to the wizarding world, yet bad enough at it that they were wizarding writers or wizarding garbagemen. There were Gilderoy Lockhart (popular author) and Argus Filch (caretaker at Hogwarts who was attempting correspondence courses) for example.

So she did envision that, as well as relatives of wizards who had nil to negligible magical talents and were Muggles for all intents and purposes, with Muggle occupations, but I do not recall that there was a Harry Dresden-style powerful wizard openly operating in the muggle world let alone rich and/or powerful as a result.

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Which she got backwards or maybe their world is backwards. wiki: “Galleon, Sickle, and Knut. They are gold, silver, and bronze, respectively. There are 17 Sickles in a Galleon, and 29 Knuts in a Sickle, meaning there are 493 Knuts in a Galleon.” But the gold coin is the biggest, and IRL it is the smallest.

The English bronze penny was huge, the gold guinea the size of a nickel.

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Gilderoy was “competent” to be a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, and while he was a coward and buffoon he had been good enough to charm the people who actually did the exploits he wrote about and used powerful spells to permanently effect their memory.

Filch was a squib, a person unable to practice magic born into a wizarding family. Those usually make a transfer to a life in the Muggle world- one of the Dursley’s neighbors is another one. All the courses and things Filch buys are probably just scams.

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Um, why would we be twitching?