# Quibbling about shotguns. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 13, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805 "2004-04-13T16:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/21 "2004-04-17T01:43:25Z")
It’s times like this that I wish I could send up the board-equivalent of a flare. I made a terrible mistake when I endorsed **fushj00mang** ’s choice of home-defense ammunition. I saw what I expected, instead of what was actually written. He asked about a 12-gauge shotgun and #4 **bird** shot for home defense and I endorsed it. That’s wrong. That’s dangerously wrong. In the first place, most commercially produced #4 birdshot is going to be intended for waterfowl, which means ducks and geese, which means steel shot. That’s most definitely NOT what he wants. I’m not a home defense expert, and I’ve never claimed to be, but I’m really clear on one point. DO NOT LOAD BIRDSHOT. I thought he wrote #4 **buck** shot, which is an entirely differnt thing. **#4 buckshot** not birdshot. You want to defend yourself and your family. You want to put the target down, not torture it. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/22 "2004-04-23T05:22:01Z")
Exgineer, Just got your e-mail. Aparently, when you dropped ‘spam’ on the end of the sub line, it got picked up by spam filter. Funny, huh? Well, I’ve got the paperwork going for a BATF transfer on a Benelli M1 Entry, the one with the 14 inch barrel and six round mag. The fellow down at the Sumter PD, when I registered the request, gave me advice on ammo. For home defence, he said to load it (in firing order) with a Remmington XD beanbag round, then follow it with four shells of 00-buck. He said the last round could be whatever I wanted. But, in the meantime, I still have my M4 mod for home defence. Anyway, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/23 "2004-04-23T20:51:03Z")
OO buck is good for police. It has penetration value. For home defence, you don’t want a high penetration value. I personally recommend BB shot. It is right below #4 buckshot in size, won’t penetrate a wall, and is deadly up to 25yds or so. Having the first round be a "non-lethal’ shot sounds good, tho. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/24 "2004-04-24T00:36:39Z")
Just to be explicit, we did some revisions of the Staff Report when **samclem** found a reference to “ridin’ shotgun” from the 1920s. I took the occasion to adjust the term “in the right general direction” to “in the right direction.” I hope that addresses the concerns of the OP – we never intended to say that you don’t need to aim, we only wanted to say that you don’t need to be a marksman. If you miss by a couple inches with a shotgun, that’s usually good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/25 "2004-04-26T12:38:15Z")
Fair enough. Like it says in the thread title, I was quibbling. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/26 "2004-04-26T15:06:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > CKdex- there have been no authenticated cases of an unprovoked wolf attack in North America. In general (the hundred years war & France being a notable exception, which I can explain)- wolves don’t attack humans. In fact- in general- predators don’t attack humans. Just because most predators don’t attack humans, doesn’t mean that some people don’t feel the need to “defend” themselves against them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/27 "2004-04-26T20:32:01Z")
Yeah, **Ludovic** , I didn’t want to state the obvious, but it’s probably good that you did. Meanwhile, I’m awaiting **DrDeth** ’s story of how wolves attacked France during the Hundred Years’ War. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/28 "2004-04-26T21:01:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I personally recommend BB shot. It is right below #4 buckshot in size, won’t penetrate a wall, and is deadly up to 25yds or so. You guys must have some seriously tough walls where you live. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/29 "2004-04-27T01:06:43Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > I’ve become a bit concerned about overpenitration in my apartment (the walls are a bit thin, and I don’t need to shoot a neighbor.) I’ve decided to add a third horse to the stable, a shotgun (duh.) Seeing as I don’t really know all that much about them, I’ve been asking around, and the two that have come up more often than any others are the Remmington 870 and Mossberg 590. I’ve had it recommended that I take either version in a 16" barrel with 3" chamber. In close quarters even a 16" barrel is a bit unwieldy to swing around if someone’s sneaking up behind you. Of couse, we all know, boys and girls, that Ms. Clinton and Mr. Kennedy and their partners in crime would be all over you if you try to be safe and save yourself and your neighbors while stopping criminals (don’t saw shotgun barrels shorter), so consider: A standard .410 shotgun shell will chamber adequately in anything chambered for .45 Long Colt. I have a derringer, modern, single-shot, chambered for (as listed) .45 Long Colt/.410 Shotgun. It’s got a four-inch barrel. Household tests show that across a room it will not penetrate single-wall pine (Double-wall gypsym also stops it), but it \*will \* penetrate clothing (blue jeans) and still have strength enough to go further and _hurt a lot._ I used standard light bird shot for the tests. Also I would consider a back-up gun in case there’s more than one intruder or if an intruder turns out to be real tough or on drugs. Haven’t tried a revolver chambered for .45 Long Colt yet, but a six-shooter would certainly confer some advantage. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/30 "2004-04-27T01:33:12Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Yeah, **Ludovic** , I didn’t want to state the obvious, but it’s probably good that you did. > > Meanwhile, I’m awaiting **DrDeth** ’s story of how wolves attacked France during the Hundred Years’ War. The attack was over pretty quick since they surrendered almost immediately. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/31 "2004-04-27T01:40:11Z")
OK, since nearly everybody else has voiced an opinion here, I will too. After some testing, I chose #4 **bird** shot (lead) in my 12 Ga. for home defense. At inside distances, it’s very lethal. If you miss, you’re not likely to kill your kid sleeping in the next room or blow a hole in your car outside. Buckshot will penetrate walls, which is also a factor if you have nearby neighbors. Remember, at short distances you are not shooting a spread pattern of shot, you are shooting a compressed _column_ of shot. #4 birdshot will tear anybody up that’s not wearing body armor. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/32 "2004-04-27T01:43:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > OO buck is good for police. It has penetration value. For home defence, you don’t want a high penetration value. > > I personally recommend BB shot. It is right below #4 buckshot in size, won’t penetrate a wall, and is deadly up to 25yds or so. > > Having the first round be a "non-lethal’ shot sounds good, tho. Hate to burst your bubble but the longest distance you are going to find straight line in a house is 40-50 feet. At that range BB’s are going to go through sheetrock like warm butter, you will be lucky if the spread is much more than a few inches wide. Non lethal stuff is great for things like riot control where you are not alone and do not have to depend on one shot stops. If someone has gone to the effort to force entry into your home while you and your family are there, you want to put holes in them to make sure they do not get back up or keep shooting back. I guarendamntee he wont be shooting any beanbags at you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/33 "2004-04-27T02:00:39Z")
BB shot penetrates far less than either OO or #4buckshot- which is what “the guy at the gunstore” and **Exgineer** recommended. Ok, here is what happened. During the 100 years War, France also suffered plague, famine, and several devestating winters. During at least one winter, the citizens of Paris just dumped the human bodies outside in the snow rather than bury them. Now wolves aren’t keen on eating carrion or human, but since they were starving also (the forests being devoid of both browse for the deer- and pretty well much all the deer, having been seriously hunted)- just like humans, they’ll eat anything rather than starve. So they ate dead human. Then, some bodies- plague victims, battle wounded, etc, were found that were _mostly_ dead. Since they didn’t fight back, the wolves ate them too. As happens, the wolves then aquired a taste for human, and then started attacking live and active humans. (This happens with “maneaters”, which reminds me of that Farside cartoon) In other words, the French basicly _trained_ the local packs to attack humans! Most other cases of "wolf attacks’ were when the wolves went for the mounts. That- wolves will do. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/34 "2004-04-27T02:50:49Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > A standard .410 shotgun shell will chamber adequately in anything chambered for .45 Long Colt. > > Haven’t tried a revolver chambered for .45 Long Colt yet, but a six-shooter would certainly confer some advantage. A .410 shotshell will not chamber in every .45 Long Colt gun. There are tons of guns chambered for .410 and .45 LC both, but that doesn’t mean you can fire a .410 shotshell in any .45 LC gun. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/35 "2004-04-27T05:15:19Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > In close quarters even a 16" barrel is a bit unwieldy to swing around if someone’s sneaking up behind you. . I was going to make this point. I thought shotguns were the best thing in the world for home defense until I worked security and had to do building searches in apartment complexes with one. I keep a .40 cal berreta now, loaded with mag safe rounds. Shotguns are too easy to lose control of if you come around the corner into a bad guy at night. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/36 "2004-04-28T08:03:03Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > A .410 shotshell will not chamber in every .45 Long Colt gun. There are tons of guns chambered for .410 and .45 LC both, but that doesn’t mean you can fire a .410 shotshell in any .45 LC gun. Thanks for the correction. Might save me some embarrasment 😃 (and possible injury). ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805/37 "2004-04-29T03:34:55Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#): > > Thanks for the correction. Might save me some embarrasment 😃 (and possible injury). I don’t think it would have fit anyways. Besides, there are combo .45-70/.410 revolvers. Your quest for a six-shooting shotgun may be at an end! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quibbling-about-shotguns/239805.md?page=1)