I agree that’s an incredible record, but you have to factor in the era. Number of starts, competition, etc. It will certainly never be broken, but it has to be viewed in context.
So, here are the results so far. I eliminated any posts that didn’t adhere to my extremely simple criteria, and also the obviously silly replies (Bill Lee?)
Babe Ruth - 11
Ted Williams - 6
Willie Mays - 5
Bonds - 4
Cobb - 4
DiMaggio - 2
Clemente - 1
Cy Young - 1
Pujols - 1
Gehrig - 1
I think that’s fairly accurate. I’m surprised no one said Musial at all. Lot of Cardinal fans out there, and he’s definitely worthy of consideration. I think Mike Schmidt might be severely over-looked, and Aaron (who got a mention that wasn’t counted.)
You wrote that we could use whatever criteria we wanted to judge “great.” I happen to think that Bill Lee did a great deal to make baseball fun and accessible to a portion of the public which doesn’t generally have much interest in sports.
No problem with your reply, and you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, it’s just that no one else, including Mr. Lee himself if he’s alive, would have voted for him, so I didn’t bother to include him on the final tally.
- Cobb
- Ruth
- Brooks Robinson.
Sorry for not following the criteria(Odd you chose to delete both entries that had Rose,Mine I can understand, since I did not follow the criteria by mentioning 4 players(and one fictional guy)),but if SmashThe State thinks Bill Lee is one of them ,based on your OP, his post should have been included.
Not a Rose fan?
Here is my revised list…
Ruth
Ryan
Rose
Start that and you wind up with Mays, Bonds and Williams.Maybe not Bonds either. For me the difference above your contemporaries is a huge consideration. When Ruth hit 59, no team hit that many that year. That is separation from the pack. Cy Young did that. AAron never did. He just played forever and had decent HR numbers. But never reached 50. He was overshadowed year after year by his contemporaries. No body mentions Pete Rose. Same reason. But Young was 20 % life time victories over his same era pitchers.
Even Bonds shared the press with McGwire, Sosa and others. But his slugging percentage was terrific.
Nah, nothing against Rose. I think he was probably one of the top 15 players ever (I haven’t really ranked them in order to say where, specifically.) I think he should be in the HOF. I don’t care if he’s an ass, personally. I just didn’t tally certain posts because I was trying to keep it fair (if you named four guys it threw off the balance.) This is obviously nothing scientific. I think there’s a smallish group of players that the consensus would consider the best ever and I’m curious how it plays out. Bill Lee ain’t in that group.
IMO, a pitcher can’t crack the Top 3, no matter how great they were.
Mebbe ya should have worded the OP different then.
Ruth, Mays, Bonds
Ruth, Williams, Cobb
Rose & Ryan? Seriously?
- Ruth
- Wagner
- Bonds
Nah, almost everyone else got it right away.
Since it’s the only vote Lee will receive, what difference does it make, anyway?
Top 3’s awfully stringent, so you’re either going to receive a lot of ballots that look more or less the same, or get some votes that strike others as weird. But the weird ones will never catch up to the Ruths, Mayses and Wagners.
As for your comments on Musial and Schmidt, in the cases of Musial I think he’s historically overrated but it’s hard to justify having him in the top three when many outfielders have equivalent credentials.
You can make a case for Musial, I think, but it requires arguing a lot of contentious points:
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You’d more or less have to accept that Musial was greater than Williams. That argument has been made before, but it’s not an easy one to make. If Musial is not the greatest left fielder he can’t be top 3, surely.
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If you accept Musial is greater than Williams then you also have to argue is he also better than two of the three of Mays, Cobb and Speaker (assuming Ruth is #1) as well as any infielder who has ever lived, such as Honus Wagner, and of course you must be eliminating Bonds for juicing. And you’re also assuming he’s greater than Mantle or DiMaggio, who admittedly had shorter careers.
There’s just a few too many guys up there. Even if Bonds is disallowed, I’d replace him with Wagner on my list.
As for Schmidt, I am a HUGE Schmidt fan, but your criteria is top three, not top twenty, and there’s no possible way Schmidt’s top 3. I think Schmidt was greater than people sometimes give him credit for; he is certainly top 20.
(The one that really surprises me is that DiMaggio got 2 votes and Mantle none. Mantle was a greater player, IMHO.)
Of course, Ruth is considered by many (including me) the greatest player of all time because he was an excellent pitcher as well as hitter (for both average and power). If he were playing today, he might be both in the starting rotation and serving as a DH on his non-hurling days. Plus his legend survives over seventy years after he last appeared in an MLB lineup. Even Americans who have never viewed a baseball game generally know who he was.
I’ll put Cobb second for his skill with the bat and his competitive spirit. Williams gets my nod for third – that “last man to hit .400 and qualify for the batting crown” honor has now been his for 68 years. Even though I don’t buy the argument that players of yore were generally superior to those of today, the legends of old just seem more – well, legendary – than the guys I’ve seen in action at the stadium or “live” on the tube.
Mostly because I don’t want to waste the keystrokes for everyone who wants to show how clever they are by tossing out a silly name. I wasn’t asking for “Favorite Players” or “Interesting Players.”
As for Musial and Schmidt, I personally agree with you, but was just surprised no one mentioned them at all. As you pointed out, Mantle got no votes either. It’s all sample size at this point.
1 Babe Ruth
2 Willie Mays
3 Mickey Mantle
This is the first vote for Mantle, but if he hadn’t wrecked his knee, who knows how many home runs he could have hit? He had it all, speed and power in his prime, as did Willie.
Ruth, Mays, Gehrig
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Honus Wagner