# Quick question for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472 "2009-03-31T18:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/41 "2009-04-02T14:17:44Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > To the people saying that everyone gets a shot at heaven no matter what you believe, what about [John 14:6](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2014:6&version=31): > > Sounds pretty unambigious. > > So is [this](http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html) guy right or wrong? How do you know? See posts 26, 29 and 34 (in that order). ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/42 "2009-04-02T14:23:06Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t think so. Not unless we want to define “Christian” to include people who have never heard of Christ. My claim is that accd. to the Bible, it is possible to be saved through Christ without even having heard of him (in the sense of having heard someone talk about him or having read what someone wrote about him). How can someone have a ‘certain relation towards Jesus’ if they’ve never heard of him? As far as I can see, having the relation toward Jesus necessary to get into heaven _is_ being a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/43 "2009-04-02T14:24:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Anyone want try this out in real life? > If you love someone, tell them. When they want to talk about their day, tell them how great they are and how much you love them. When they want to talk about a movie or book, tell them how wonderful they are for having those opinions and how much you love them. When they want to discuss finances, tell them they can do no wrong and how much you adore them. When they discuss politics, agree with every point they make unquestionably and tell them how much you cherish them. > How would a normal person react, as opposed to an incredibly insecure person? The reactions of such a God as defined in my proposition are so far beyond extrapolation, it’s really a moot point. I have no way of guessing God’s motives, reactions or emotional state. To answer your question, it would annoy a normal human quite a lot and drive an insecure one crazy (or crazier). But then humans aren’t “all that”; God (as defined above) _is_. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/44 "2009-04-02T14:35:29Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > How can someone have a ‘certain relation towards Jesus’ if they’ve never heard of him? As far as I can see, having the relation toward Jesus necessary to get into heaven _is_ being a Christian. Hey, man, you’re stealing my stuff: [QUOTE=Me] Maybe this is using my own definition for something, but having that “certain relation towards Jesus” is Christian, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/45 "2009-04-02T15:07:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Hey, man, you’re stealing my stuff: It needed said again. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/46 "2009-04-02T17:00:33Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > > [@Birdmonster](#): > > > > I was talking to a Christian in a bar last weekend who was telling me there was no Hell. He believed Jesus died for not just Christian sins, but all sins of all sinners and that hell is a manmade construct. > > Then, what would be the point of being Christian? Why not just be atheist, sleep in on Sundays, save money on tithing, etc.? It’s fairly standard for Christians to believe Jesus died for all (see [1 Peter 3:18](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)). And worshiping God to avoid Hell is missing the point of Christianity–it’s not a quid pro quo. That would reduce religion to a simple economic transaction. Christians worship God because of who he is, and they try to do good because they want to emulate him. Simply put: it is the journey, not the destination, that matters. > [@](#): > > Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. In mine own opinion, calling oneself Christian means recognizing Jesus as your God, but anyone who does as Jesus does is saved, whatever label they use. That’s the point of the [story of the good Samaritan](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:25-37;&version=31;). Jesus compares the Levite, who follows God in the “correct” manner, with the Samaritan, a member of a different religion, and it is the Samaritan who follows Jesus. It is actions that matter to God, not specific beliefs or labels. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/47 "2009-04-02T17:48:39Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It is actions that matter to God, not specific beliefs or labels. Hmmm, you’re saying it’s works, not faith, that matter. I wonder if that has ever been the subject of a theological debate… ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/48 "2009-04-02T18:01:52Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Hmmm, you’re saying it’s works, not faith, that matter. I wonder if that has ever been the subject of a theological debate… And several wars, too. 😃 That’s why I prefaced with “opinion”. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/49 "2009-04-02T20:26:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Hmmm, you’re saying it’s works, not faith, that matter. I wonder if that has ever been the subject of a theological debate… But “saved by faith” /= “saved by membership in the Christian religion”. I think the best reading of the Bible says something much like what **Pleonast** said, though I’d add that (the best reading of the Bible indicates that) “living as Jesus lived” is essentially a matter of faith, and is not just a matter of works. But “faith” =/ “belief in Christian doctrines.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/50 "2009-04-02T23:22:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The reactions of such a God as defined in my proposition are so far beyond extrapolation, it’s really a moot point. I have no way of guessing God’s motives, reactions or emotional state. > > To answer your question, it would annoy a normal human quite a lot and drive an insecure one crazy (or crazier). But then humans aren’t “all that”; God (as defined above) _is_. Either we judge by the standards we have to the best of our ability, or we don’t judge at all. Either this “god” is the most insecure being in the universe, or she/he/it is something we should stay _completely_ away from until more solid evidence concerning she/he/it’s nature is presented. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/51 "2009-04-03T00:55:15Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I’m a well-behaved atheist. > > Various Christians have told me that when I die: > > - I’ll go to Heaven as me > - I’ll become an angel > - I’ll probably go to Heaven > - I’ll go to Heaven only if I accept Jesus > - I’ll go to Heaven only if I’ve been baptised > - I’ll go to Purgatory > - I’ll go to prison > - I’ll go to sleep > - I won’t exist > - I’ll go to Hell until I repent > - I’ll burn in Hell forever > > They all assure me that their version is the only correct one. > [@Gyrate](#): > > 😕 > > This is a new one to me. Would you get time off for good behavior? It was a Mormon who told me this - I think he said ‘Spiritual prison’ actually. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Maybe we should have a list of people and a poll as to whether then can get in: Every Christian I’ve ever spoken to has agreed on two things (and two things only): - Jesus is the Son of God - a genocidal maniac who sincerely repents on his deathbed will go to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/52 "2009-04-03T09:54:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Either we judge by the standards we have to the best of our ability, or we don’t judge at all. Either this “god” is the most insecure being in the universe, or she/he/it is something we should stay _completely_ away from until more solid evidence concerning she/he/it’s nature is presented. Or, to consider a third possibility, every act and word of God’s is as worthy of spontaneous unfeigned praise as, say, the single finest golf shot Tiger Woods will ever hit, or the single best verse Shakespeare ever wrote, or the single best tune Mozart ever composed; and the whole sentient population of the universe can be divided according to their willingness to recognise this, or their mean-spirited determination to withhold praise for any excuse they can trump up. This may not be necessarily the truth, but is presented in a spirit of something to do with false dilemmas. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/53 "2009-04-03T10:12:23Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Or, to consider a third possibility, every act and word of God’s is as worthy of spontaneous unfeigned praise as, say, the single finest golf shot Tiger Woods will ever hit, or the single best verse Shakespeare ever wrote, or the single best tune Mozart ever composed; and the whole sentient population of the universe can be divided according to their willingness to recognise this, or their mean-spirited determination to withhold praise for any excuse they can trump up. Which was my original point. Being an agnostic I don’t actually _believe_ it, but I at least understand the principle of why one would spend eternity praising God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/54 "2009-04-03T11:18:48Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Or, to consider a third possibility, every act and word of God’s is as worthy of spontaneous unfeigned praise as, say, the single finest golf shot Tiger Woods will ever hit, or the single best verse Shakespeare ever wrote, or the single best tune Mozart ever composed; and the whole sentient population of the universe can be divided according to their willingness to recognise this, or their mean-spirited determination to withhold praise for any excuse they can trump up. > > This may not be necessarily the truth, but is presented in a spirit of something to do with false dilemmas. I don’t think it is within me to praise God for letting children die of disease and malnutrition without a _damn_ good reason first. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/55 "2009-04-03T11:54:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think it is within me to praise God for letting children die of disease and malnutrition without a _damn_ good reason first. That’s as may be, but you’ve shifted ground somewhat, because earlier you were talking about the insecurity of someone who expected to be praised all the time, and suddenly now we’re not talking about insecurity any more. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/56 "2009-04-03T13:39:01Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > That’s as may be, but you’ve shifted ground somewhat, because earlier you were talking about the insecurity of someone who expected to be praised all the time, and suddenly now we’re not talking about insecurity any more. But in a way, we still are. Does this deity requires constant praise for any and all actions, whether we understand them or not? Is 24-hours-a-day-unto-eternity constant praise a “heaven” one wants to strive for? If atheists were allowed into Heaven if they turned out to be pretty good folks otherwise, would they even _want_ to? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/57 "2009-04-03T13:41:36Z")
I agree with **Czarcasm**. I would never worship anyone who could have prevented 9/11 and didn’t. That god is evil and/or not able to do everything. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/58 "2009-04-03T13:48:37Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Every Christian I’ve ever spoken to has agreed on two things (and two things only): > > - Jesus is the Son of God > - a genocidal maniac who sincerely repents on his deathbed will go to Heaven. See, what I’ve always heard is that the repentance is just part of it, that accepting god/jesus is the second necessary part. You can’t just be sorry, you have to be sorry to the right supernatural being. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/59 "2009-04-03T14:45:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But in a way, we still are. Does this deity requires constant praise for any and all actions, whether we understand them or not? Is 24-hours-a-day-unto-eternity constant praise a “heaven” one wants to strive for? If atheists were allowed into Heaven if they turned out to be pretty good folks otherwise, would they even _want_ to? You’re still moving the definition of Heaven from “place where you _willingly_ praise God eternally” to “place where you _are required to_ praise God eternally”. Big difference. Does God demand our praise, or merely our faith/obedience? And any Christian who thinks that God gives His people an easy ride _really_ hasn’t read the Bible. God plays the Long Game - in the end it’s all good, even if in the short term (by God’s timeframe, anyway) it’s really quite horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/60 "2009-04-03T15:08:23Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No, I don’t believe that. There isn’t any basis for the claim that only Christians go to Heaven. Rather, the judgement is based on whether an individual chooses to be with God or against God. Heaven is the state of being united with God, Hell is the state of being separated from God. So those who choose to be united with are, and those who to be divided from God are. This is a false choice. It assumes the individual knows that God exists and can consciously make a choice to be “with” him or “against” him (whatever that means). For an individual (like me) with no awareness that God exists, this choice is impossible to make. Not only that, it’s a stupid and immoral criterion for God to judge people on. If he isn’t willing to demonstrate his own existence, he has no right to demand belief in it. You can also count me as another one who doesn’t get God’s alleged craving for praise and glory. Praise and glory for what? Being so big and strong? Whoop-dee-doo. An omnimax entity who creates a whole universe just so he can hear his own creations kiss his ass is not somebody I have much interest in hanging with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472.md?page=4)