# Quick question for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472 "2009-03-31T18:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/81 "2009-04-03T19:52:01Z")
Well, if believing in God is irrational and a believer behaves in an altruistic way because of a supposed reward from that God, I’d argue that that irrationality is actually _very_ good. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/82 "2009-04-03T20:00:51Z")
Jeez, man, you’re stealing my stuff again: > [@hotflungwok](#): > > Then why bother with the religion part of it? Just do the good works and sleep in on Sunday. [QUOTE=Me] Then, what would be the point of being Christian? Why not just be atheist, sleep in on Sundays, save money on tithing, etc.? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/83 "2009-04-03T20:02:43Z")
Strangely, I’m eating some Ritter Sport right now. It’s effing tasy. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/84 "2009-04-03T20:12:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, I am observing that IF X is true then Y must be true. That’s how logic works. And what is your evidence that logic works in this case? > [@glee](#): > > If I am a well-behaved atheist, but die saying “You know, there’s no evidence for God”, then Christians say all sorts of things could happen to me (including burning in Hell forever :smack:). > However every Christain I’ve met (possibly except Pleonast?) states that a genocidal maniac who sincerely repents on his deathbed will go straight to Heaven. I don’t think “there’s no evidence for God” is particularly meaningful. The point of faith is that there is belief without evidence. I agree there is no evidence for God, but I still believe in God. “I don’t believe in God” would be more important. But even that is not critical. If a person has done good things, then the details of their religious beliefs are not important. (And to preempt a question: I don’t know how many good things are required to get into heaven, that’s for God’s judgement.) As for the genocidal maniac who sincerely repents on their deathbed, I don’t know whether or not they’d get into heaven. Again, that’s for God to judge. > [@hotflungwok](#): > > Then why bother with the religion part of it? Just do the good works and sleep in on Sunday. > > :rolleyes: I can think of many instances of irrationality being bad. Can you show why your irrationality is not? Yes, do good works and do whatever you like on Sunday. I would say Jesus would be happy about you. (I sincerely mean this!) Yes, irrationality can be bad. (And surely you will agree that rationality can be bad sometimes, too.) That does not mean it always is. As for mine own irrationality, judge me by my works. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/85 "2009-04-03T20:14:56Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > Strangely, I’m eating some Ritter Sport right now. It’s effing tasy. Mmmmm. Me. [/Homer] ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/86 "2009-04-03T20:33:54Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > As for the genocidal maniac who sincerely repents on their deathbed, I don’t know whether or not they’d get into heaven. Again, that’s for God to judge. I’m sorry, but that sounds a bit like a copout. Aren’t these verses perfectly clear? Luke 5:32 Jesus “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 15:7 Jesus “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” (and for the atheist not getting in, see the requirement for eternal life as in Luke 10:27 “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself”) ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/87 "2009-04-03T21:01:55Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Again, that’s for God to judge.Yes, do good works and do whatever you like on Sunday. I would say Jesus would be happy about you. (I sincerely mean this!) And again, I say why bother with the religion? If the acts are all that matter why bother with church and worship and prayer and everything else? > [@](#): > > Yes, irrationality can be bad. (And surely you will agree that rationality can be bad sometimes, too.) That does not mean it always is. As for mine own irrationality, judge me by my works. Are your works because of your irrationality, or in spite of it? If you can do good works without irrationality, why bother with it at all? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/88 "2009-04-03T21:34:48Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I’m sorry, but that sounds a bit like a copout. > Aren’t these verses perfectly clear? > Luke 5:32 > Jesus “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” > Luke 15:7 > Jesus “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” Those are good reasons to repent. But [Matthew 7:1-5](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:1-5;&version=31;) makes it clear that one should not judge others. > [@](#): > > (and for the atheist not getting in, see the requirement for eternal life as in Luke 10:27 “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself”) Exactly, and there’s no requirements about specific beliefs. > [@hotflungwok](#): > > And again, I say why bother with the religion? If the acts are all that matter why bother with church and worship and prayer and everything else? Because of cultural or social reasons? I don’t think they’re necessary, so don’t expect me to justify them. > [@](#): > > Are your works because of your irrationality, or in spite of it? If you can do good works without irrationality, why bother with it at all? Probably some of both. In the economic sense of rational, the time and money I give to charity wouldn’t pass a cost-benefit analysis. And I’m not sure that it’s even possible for me to simply switch off some of my beliefs. My beliefs aren’t something I suddenly decided to have. They developed over my life and are integrated into who I am. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/89 "2009-04-03T21:35:50Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Are your works because of your irrationality, or in spite of it? If you can do good works without irrationality, why bother with it at all? Like I noted in 81—if you assert that belief in God is irrational yet someone performs good works (not **Pleonast** , say, but an anonymous Christian) because of the belief that God wants them to/they will be rewarded with salvation, then that’s good works _because_ of irrationality. That’s a net gain and the so-called irrationality hurts no one. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/90 "2009-04-03T22:40:56Z")
> [@glee](#): > > It was a Mormon who told me this - I think he said ‘Spiritual prison’ actually. Spirit Prison = pre-judgement purgatory. It’s where you sit around brooding over your sins and eventual fate, and possibly trying to get in a little last-minute cribbing before the final judgement. When a mormon refers to Hell they are referring to the same place. (The post-judgement punishment/incarceration locale is one of the two non-optimal heavenly kingdoms or, if you’re _quite_ naughty, “Outer Darkness”. Incidentally.) ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/91 "2009-04-04T01:07:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think it is within me to praise God for letting children die of disease and malnutrition without a _damn_ good reason first. God may allow death, but He is not the god of death. “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”–Matthew 22:32 Why does everyone blame God for killing people? If you’re going to acknowledge Him then you you should at least get the facts straight. Death takes lives. Death is a product of sin. God is without sin. If you look at it another way… maybe God allows some babies to die so they don’t grow up and become another Hitler. You know… like the “one life instead of a thousand” deal. I’m sure you won’t consider that a damn good reason… but you will probably come up with a damn good reason not to. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/92 "2009-04-04T01:19:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I agree with **Czarcasm**. I would never worship anyone who could have prevented 9/11 and didn’t. That god is evil and/or not able to do everything. … seriously? I mean… is this post for serious!? First, you don’t even seem to believe in God… yet you expect Him to miraculously prevent horrible things from happening? Secondly… since it seems you don’t believe in God, why not blame something or someone more realistic… like… the people who knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened? There was at least one opportunity for the USA to stop the attacks… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/93 "2009-04-04T02:17:44Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > And what is your evidence that logic works in this case? Logic IS evidence. Evidence is logic. If you can’t draw necessary inferences from starting premises then the premises are worthless. If you want to try to wave away logical inferences from the claims you make ABOUT God, them the claims have no value. > [@](#): > > I don’t think “there’s no evidence for God” is particularly meaningful. It’s extremely meaningful. It means there’s no evidence. > [@](#): > > The point of faith is that there is belief without evidence. Yes, we know the definition. Defining it does not explain how it has any point. Why is it a virtue to believe something for no reason? I won’t say it necessarily has to be a harmful thing, but I don’t see why it has any moral, intellectual or philosphical value. To quote Mark Twain, “faith is believing what you know ain’t so.” ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/94 "2009-04-04T02:54:45Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > I don’t believe any human has any authority to say who is and/or who isn’t going to Heaven/Hell. That decision is God’s and God’s alone. > > I believe an individual can know their own destiny. I know, without any doubt, that I am going to Heaven and I know people who, without doubt, know they are going to Heaven. > > In the end, it’s all up to God. I know without doubt I am going to Heaven, but if God says to me “Kid, I’m sorry but… You’re not allowed in. I’m sending you to Hell”, then glory be to God and His righteous judgment. I know He won’t be saying that to me. If I thought there was any chance He would say that to me, I would have doubt about going to Heaven. I have no doubt I will spend eternity in Heaven with God and His people. Your position doesn’t make sense to me. In one moment you say that no human has any authority to say who is and/or who isn’t going to Heave/Hell. That that decision is God’s alone… But then you say you know that you are going to Heaven and that you also know people who, without a doubt, _know_ they are going to heaven. How does that work exactly? Because then you say that God could banish you to Hell…but that you know He won’t. You don’t make any sense at all…your only test against your “logic” is that you, personally, do not have any doubt that you will be spending eternity in Heaven with God and His people. Doesn’t seem to be the acid test really…just seems a twist and a turn and you get you where you want to be. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472/95 "2009-04-06T22:38:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I like [Christian Universalism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism) Yeah…having been raised Universalist, I don’t believe that _any_ humans go to hell. Hell and eternal damnation are only Satan’s punishment; those who cannot accept God, even upon seeing him at judgement day, will merely cease to exist, rather than be tormented for all time. I don’t think there will be too many people that have even the latter happen to them, though I’m uncertain if there are deeds (i.e. breaking the commandments) that will bar people from heaven beyond the issue of faith, but non-believers are just as likely to live their lives without heinous acts even if their motivation for moral behavior is different, so their lack of faith wouldn’t complicate that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-christians/491472.md?page=4)