# Quick question for the relgious! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125 "2003-03-09T20:11:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/21 "2003-03-10T00:32:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > **Likewise the starlight from stars further than ~6000 light years distant (which wouldn’t be here yet if the universe was young.** Ah, but we’ve only directly measured the distances to stars within a couple hundred light-years! All the rest of our measurements assume “standard candles” … e.g., “The spectrum of star X looks exactly like the spectrum of star Y, and we’ve measured the distance to star Y as 80 light-years. **But** , star X is 10,000 times dimmer than star Y, so if star X really is putting out the same amount of light as star Y, it must be 100 times farther away. Therefore, star X is 8000 light-years away.” What if God set a cut-off point out at 1000 light-years or so, and everything that **looks** farther away than this is actually just really really small and dim but with a spectrum made up to confuse you into thinking it was larger? (I guess it makes as much sense as God sending the photons from a distant galaxy on their way to Earth so that they’d arrive here and now.) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/22 "2003-03-10T00:34:29Z")
The Hebrew word _yohm_, translated “day,” can mean different lengths of time. > [@](#): > > William Wilson’s _Old Testament Word Studies_ pg 109 > > _Yohm_ > > A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration . > Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens. Doesn’t settle anything, I know. Just thought I would throw it out there. If I’m wrong about the Hebrew word, please inform. I don’t know Hebrew, I just read lots of books. Yeah, “no quick questions” is right. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/23 "2003-03-10T00:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > I’m reliably informed that people claiming God created fossils _in situ_ and starlight _in transit_ really exist, but I’ve yet to see it for myself. > [@](#): > > There are Biblical indications that the earth and the universe were created with the appearance of age… > > [T]he stars—and the nearest is 4 1/2 light-years distant—were seen on the first day of their existence. This means that even if the distances are correct, the stars would merely have given the appearance of having been here longer. Therefore, the stars and the light beams connecting them visually to the Earth were both created at the same time. > > This concept raises several questions. First, does this not mean that God—like some magician—is intentionally deceiving us by making things appear to be older than they actually are? The question really goes back to the matter of intent: did God intend to fool us, or did He intend primarily to make things _fully functional_ but we are fooled only because we view them with certain uniformitarian assumptions? Therefore, while it is true that the earth and the universe were created with the appearance of age, I think we do better to speak of the creation of a _fully functional_ universe that, as a secondary feature, merely gives the appearance of age. – from [“Starlight and the Age of the Universe”](http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-121.htm) by Richard Niessen, [Institute for Creation Research](http://www.icr.org) On the other hand, [Old Testament Bible Study of the Creation to Abraham (Genesis 1 to Genesis 12): The Six Days of Creation (Genesis 1:1-2:25)](http://www.bible-truth.org/GEN1.HTM) by Cooper P. Abrams III, from the [Bible Truth](http://www.bible-truth.org/) website, denies that fossils were created _in situ_: > [@](#): > > Accounting to the Bible at this time in Creation, there could not have been any fossils at this time! Genesis 3, records the Fall of man and the entering of sin and its result death. Fossils have to die to become fossils. God has said there was no death on earth until after the seventh day of Creation. Young Earth “six-day” creationists of this sort would probably say fossils are (mainly) the result of the Flood. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/24 "2003-03-10T00:41:05Z")
You also have to remember that there are two distinct creation stories in Genesis. As one example of their differences, in one story God creates man and woman at the same time. In another story there is the familiar Adam and Eve story. Slight hijack: The best thoughts I have heard on the Bible vs. science, is that the people who wrote the words of the Bible were men of faith, not men of science. The same (mainstream Protestant) pastor who said that also was opposed to prayer in school, since he believed it cheapened the devotional act to make it secular. Better. he said, that people who believed in the importance of prayer take a few minutes at home to pray with their families. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/25 "2003-03-10T00:43:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Ah, but we’ve only directly measured the distances to stars within a couple hundred light-years! All the rest of our measurements assume “standard candles” … e.g., “The spectrum of star X looks exactly like the spectrum of star Y, and we’ve measured the distance to star Y as 80 light-years. **But** , star X is 10,000 times dimmer than star Y, so if star X really is putting out the same amount of light as star Y, it must be 100 times farther away. Therefore, star X is 8000 light-years away.” > > What if God set a cut-off point out at 1000 light-years or so, and everything that **looks** farther away than this is actually just really really small and dim but with a spectrum made up to confuse you into thinking it was larger? (I guess it makes as much sense as God sending the photons from a distant galaxy on their way to Earth so that they’d arrive here and now.) \*\* You’re right; it paints him as a lying toady whichever way up you stack it; red shift couldn’t be faked by making the fainter/smaller stars _redder_ because the absorption lines would be all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/26 "2003-03-10T00:48:16Z")
Also of course, anyone wanting to posit smaller/dimmer stars, but having the same spectral properties as brighter ones would have physics against them, wouldn’t they? - it wouldn’t be possible to have a star of _any_ size you like, unless Goddidit. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/27 "2003-03-10T00:48:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinful \* > \*\*Okay, so why is heaven be taken literally either? > \*\* Sorry, we don’t have a “gotcha” on this. Christian scholars had been working on the gaps and contradictions for over a millennium before we figured out the heliocentric solar system and Evolution. **Non-literalists** see the Bible as an inspired source of MORAL and THEOLOGICAL teachings; those happen to be set among a series of period “stories” that may go from roughly accurate on major points (yes, the Romans ruled Judaea in 29AD) to evidently allegorical (talking snakes?!). That the scenario stories don’t jibe with historical fact is beside the point. Absolute literalists, OTOH, will VIGOROUSLY dispute your claim that the multimillion-year reign of dinosaurs is an “indisputable fact”. They’ll claim WE are the ones taking evolution on Blind Faith. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/28 "2003-03-10T01:00:21Z")
Thanks, **Buckner** , I was looking for something like that to show that some people have really put a lot of work into explaining something that seems highly unlikely, but all my searches brought up were some sites really disrespectful to science or non literalists. To me, sometimes one’s faith can mimic credulity. And some religious people are extremely biased. FTR, I am not a Creationist, though I do believe in God and creation. I also trust our sciences, though we sometimes have problems reconciling the two beliefes. I’m still learning quite a bit, as you well know. So, I’ll let someone else deal with that. (And I’ll keep civil, promise.) I’m going to look up some stuff on “Heaven” as used in the Bible. If I find anything useful to this thread, I’ll post it. Unless someone beats me to it. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/29 "2003-03-10T01:05:30Z")
Well, people have put a lot of work into all sorts of things. I would say there has been a great deal of wasted effort over the course of human history on things like young Earth creationism, or trying to defend the Protestant Bible as being without contradiction or error. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/30 "2003-03-10T15:01:02Z")
They way I’ve heard it: dinosaurs existed. They were wiped out looong before humans were created. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/31 "2003-03-10T19:05:32Z")
Sinful: The response below has its basis in a biblical “fact” that is commonly accepted. If you wish not to accept it, then the answer below will be meaningless to you, so I will state it before directly addressing your questions: The Bible says Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day. They were created as adults, not as infants. Someone seeing Adam and Eve when they were less than one day old would think them to have been twenty years old. Now, to your questions: > [@](#): > > So where did the dinosaurs, and the meteorites that wiped them out come from? (well supposedly wiped them out, we’ll never realllly know). They weren’t there. Just as G-d created Adam and Eve in a mature state, he also created a world that was already in a mature state, consistent with scientific principles that would lead to the arrival of mankind on the scene in the modern era. > [@](#): > > They inhabited the world for millions of years, this is an indisputable fact. Indisputable? Seeing Adam and Eve on the day of their creation, you could have said that it’s “indisputable” that they’d been around for twenty years, when in fact it would have been untrue. > [@](#): > > So wheres the mention of them? Was this a small oversight on the writers part? Or did God feck up and decide to brush it under the carpet? I dunno. Did the Bible mention kangaroos? Elephants? Beavers? Three-toed sloths? Plenty of things exist now, and could have existed in the past or existed only as fossils, that have not been mentioned in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/32 "2003-03-10T20:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > They weren’t there. Just as G-d created Adam and Eve in a mature state, he also created a world that was already in a mature state, consistent with scientific principles that would lead to the arrival of mankind on the scene in the modern era. Do automakers sell cars in an “already mature state” complete with rust, or do they sell them brand new? A planet does not need thick layers of fossil-bearing sedimentary rock interspersed with igneous layers (impossible to result from a flood) to be habitable. A layer of soil on the surface, perhaps, but in that case you’d expect to find a uniform layer if igneous strata topped with just enough soil for cultivation. And then there’s erosion, glaciation, plate tectonics, ice core samples, etc. And why would the light from distant celestial objects visible only thru telescopes need to be created? **Tracer** , what about distant _galaxies_? Are they inside our own galaxy? > [@](#): > > Did the Bible mention kangaroos? Elephants? Beavers? Three-toed sloths? Plenty of things exist now, and could have existed in the past or existed only as fossils, that have not been mentioned in the Bible. Did the Bible mention that the World is round? Pretty basic underlying fact of existence and easily stated in so many words. And why in Geedee’s name would some living things exist only as fossils? ---
**Author:** ![Sinful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Sinful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinful)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/33 "2003-03-10T21:01:38Z")
So DNA showing we’re somthing like 98% the same as apes and all the skeletal remains are conspiraces, fakes, dont exist, or im talking from my ape-like rectal cavity? Assuming God is omniptiant, wheres he gone? He was all over the world in the old testament, smiting people here there and everywhere, flooding the world, and now wheres he gone? . ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/34 "2003-03-10T23:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > Indisputable? Seeing Adam and Eve on the day of their creation, you could have said that it’s “indisputable” that they’d been around for twenty years, when in fact it would have been untrue. By the logic you express, it’s “disputable” that the Universe existed five minutes ago. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/35 "2003-03-11T01:33:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\* > > Did the Bible mention that the World is round? \*\* Actually, yes. In a way… > [@](#): > > _Isaiah 40:22_ > > He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, > and its people are like grasshoppers. This is intersting, too. > [@](#): > > _Job 26:7_ > > He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; > he suspends the earth over nothing. Though, I have to disagree with **cmkeller**. Sorry, but I cannot dismiss all of science in this regard. Your faith is your own, though. I’m not about to correct someone else’s faith, just disagree. The Bible is not a book of science. It is a book of theology. Where it touches on science, it can be interpreted many different ways. Some of the language is vague, I think intentionally so. Anyways, that’s my take. I haven’t yet formed a complete idea for my own beliefes, so I’m not in a position for debate on certain matters. I may not ever get some answers, but I’m happy to learn and discuss all sorts of new things. **Sinful** , by your posts, you seem to be not just an atheist, but actually anti religious. What has led to this possible bias? If I’m wrong or asking too much, my apologies. But, I am curious. And, er…, I never did get around to looking up the heaven stuff like I said I would. Will try again after supper. Unless I get sidetracked. Or find nothing of note. Or die (though I will try to post from the afterlife, provided there is one after all). ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/36 "2003-03-11T02:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sinful \* > \*\* But do me a favour, and explain dinosaurs. Go on. God created the world in 7 days. Created man on the 6th if I remember rightly._\* Dinosaurs lived with man. You’ve been lied to by a vast atheistic _evil_ conspiracy run by devil-worshipping hippies. They want you to believe in the evolution “myth”, because if you can believe that something came from nothing and violate natural “laws”, then you are prime realestate for devil worship. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinful \* > \*\* So where did the dinosaurs, and the meteorites that wiped them out come from? (well supposedly wiped them out, we’ll never realllly know). \*\* God them. Noah took them on the ark. Read about it [here](http://www.drdino.com/) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinful \* > \*\* They inhabited the world for millions of years, this is an indisputable fact. So wheres the mention of them? Was this a small oversight on the writers part? Or did God feck up and decide to brush it under the carpet? \*\* Oh contrar! It is disputable! I’ve just given you a link to one of the top PhD’s in the world. His evidence is so compelling that **NO** Darwinist has _ever_ take the 250K he has offered right [here](http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=250k) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinful \* > \*\* And since we’re supposed to be made in Gods image. who did make the dinosaurs, since they were around long before mankind as we know now. \*\* The bible says nothing about making dinosaurs in God’s image. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinful \* > \*\* Answers on a reply below please! (This is not intended to create an argument, I really do want to know how people unquestioningly follow the creationist theory with this big hunk of unexplainedness!) \*\* Wait, _the rhetoric you’ve used isn’t supposed to create an argument?_ ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/37 "2003-03-11T02:08:02Z")
But, if they’re atheists, would they even believe in the Devil so as to worship him? Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/38 "2003-03-11T02:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*But, if they’re atheists, would they even believe in the Devil so as to worship him? > > Hmmm… \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/39 "2003-03-11T02:13:14Z")
A literal reading of Genesis is not incompatible with a god who created our existent world according to it, but such a god would have to be a trickster god of the Loki/Coyote sort, not YHWH. On the other hand, the idea that Genesis must be read literally is a human conception, a precondition on a story obviously told from a storyteller’s standpoint, using classic storyteller techniques. (Compare Goldilocks and the Three Bears; every three-year-old that hears that story twice knows that the baby bear’s whatever will be _just right_ about five paragraphs into the story.) On each day God says “Let there be [things],” [things] come into existence at his word, he looks on [things], and the evening and the morning are the [Nth] day. (And this despite the idea that the sun and moon are not created until the third day, but light itself on the first.) To say that this is an accurate scientific account of creation is to suppose that the other story is the result of a blonde girl’s researches into ursine behavior in their native habitat. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125/40 "2003-03-11T02:15:42Z")
significant omission from my summary of the Genesis 1 narrative style: It should have read; > [@](#): > > On each day God says “Let there be [things],” [things] come into existence at his word, He looks on [things] **and calls them good** , and the evening and the morning are the [Nth] day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quick-question-for-the-relgious/160125.md?page=3)