# Quit jogging in the street you neuticle! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234 "2005-08-30T12:15:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/141 "2005-09-02T13:59:36Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I just don’t understand why you can’t run somewhere else besides in traffic, which endangers others. Go to a park, go to the high school track, go to the woods, anywhere but in close proximity to vehicles who must swerve to avoid you. To insist you have the right to do it anyway smacks of selfish behavior. I think this brings us back to the beginning. If a jogger is running such that cars have to swerve to avoid them, then they are selfish. I’ve had only the one incident with a car alluded to earlier. I’ve never been yelled at by a driver or swerved around. Plus, I live (for another two weeks!) in Manhattan. It’s not just not practicable to run on the sidewalk, it’s not possible. I run about a mile on the street to get to a path where I do most of my run, and then the mile home. People in Manhattan don’t have cars, and I have to get to the path somehow. Let me use an example of why it is safer in the street. When cars pull out of driveways, or out of parking lots, they inevitably turn on the engine and back out across the sidewalk, stopping only when they reach the actual road. They stop there because they are looking for vehicular traffic. No one (myself included) stops before they get to the sidewalk, passes over it, and stops again. Two joggers, one on the sidewalk, one on the shoulder. The one on the shoulder is protected by the fact that the car pulling out is looking for other cars. The one on the sidewalk has a better chance of being hit (albeit at a hopefullylow speed). I’m not just running on the street because I can, and I’m flaunting it to those bastard drivers. I’m doing it in the interest of safety and efficacy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/142 "2005-09-02T14:01:55Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I am citing law. The law makes a very clear “practicable” exception. This seems to be common wording across much of the country. The word is not defined (where I can see, if you can find it, I’d be happy to consider), The definition I found at [dictionary.law.com](http://dictionary.law.com) says > [@](#): > > practicable > adj. when something can be done or performed. [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) has a similar definition. If the sidewalk is impassible (construction) then you’re in the clear. If the sidewalk is damaged, uneven or congested with traffic, you might get that argument to work, but it’ll be a fight. Difficult or inconvenient to do isn’t the same thing as can’t do. If you just don’t like concrete on your knees, or think that the road is more convenient, I don’t think the argument is going to fly at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/143 "2005-09-02T14:08:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The definition I found at [dictionary.law.com](http://dictionary.law.com) > says [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) has a similar definition. If the sidewalk is impassible (construction) then you’re in the clear. If the sidewalk is damaged, uneven or congested with traffic, you might get that argument to work, but it’ll be a fight. Difficult or inconvenient to do isn’t the same thing as can’t do. If you just don’t like concrete on your knees, or think that the road is more convenient, I don’t think the argument is going to fly at all. I didn’t mean the dictionary definition. I think we can both argue either side of this from the dictionary definition (see my post above). I meant how it was being applied legally. They are not defining the word “practicable” in the law, that I can find. And the states where “roadway” is defined, the issue becomes even clearer. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/144 "2005-09-02T14:13:02Z")
By the way, for my (and maybe others’) benefit, could we clear something up? I have the strong feeling that the “runner” the OP referred to was not running on the shoulder or along the side of the flow of traffic, but was instead actually in the road (main traffic artery) itself, blocking the flow of traffic. For those of you who are saying it is legal to run “on the road,” are you stating that it is fine to run down a highway or other road on the actual part of the road where cars most routinely travel? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/145 "2005-09-02T14:25:47Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Plus, I live (for another two weeks!) in Manhattan. It’s not just not practicable to run on the sidewalk, it’s not possible. I run about a mile on the street to get to a path where I do most of my run, and then the mile home. People in Manhattan don’t have cars, and I have to get to the path somehow. So it is entirely a convenience thing. Why not walk on the sidewalk until you get to your preferred running path? > [@SlyFrog](#): > > For those of you who are saying it is legal to run “on the road,” are you stating that it is fine to run down a highway or other road on the actual part of the road where cars most routinely travel? Based on the many posts about how much easier asphault is to run on (“asphault is 8 times softer than concrete”), yes, they are talking about demanding the right to share the same surface cars drive on. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/146 "2005-09-02T14:36:48Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > yes, they are talking about demanding the right to share the same surface cars drive on. That’s not what he asked, and you know it. No sensible person is talking about running in the lane. If that is in fact what the OP was talking about, then rant away because that’s idiotic. The lane closest to the side of the road is generally three or four feet wider than a car. I am only about two feet (?) wide. What we are talking about is me taking up two feet of that lane on the extreme side of the road. If a road were too narrow that there is not this 3-4 foot leeway, I would only run on it if it were absolutely required to get to my home, and would stay on the sidewalk if there were one. Otherwise, I wouldn’t run on it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/147 "2005-09-02T14:40:28Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I didn’t mean the dictionary definition. The cite I provided was from [here](http://dictionary.law.com/) which is an online law dictionary. Throw “murder” or “chair” in there and you’ll see how much it deviates from Websters. Each state may have it’s own definition, I know they define certain terms, but without any evidence to the contrary, I’d at least think this is a reasonable place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/148 "2005-09-02T14:47:26Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The lane closest to the side of the road is generally three or four feet wider than a car. I am only about two feet (?) wide. What we are talking about is me taking up two feet of that lane on the extreme side of the road. I am not comfortable passing a runner with only 12 inches of leeway. The law says drivers must exercise due care in passing you, even though you are in violation of the law. Time and time again, I have seen drivers fade away from a runner and over the centerline. They violate the law for your safety, so that you can have the convenience of running to and from you jogging path. That is selfishness of the highest order. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/149 "2005-09-02T14:51:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The cite I provided was from [here](http://dictionary.law.com/) which is an online law dictionary. Throw “murder” or “chair” in there and you’ll see how much it deviates from Websters. > > Each state may have it’s own definition, I know they define certain terms, but without any evidence to the contrary, I’d at least think this is a reasonable place to start. Sorry, should have been clearer. Even the law definition is widely open to interpretation. So, it is getting its definition at the level of application. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/150 "2005-09-02T14:56:14Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I am not comfortable passing a runner with only 12 inches of leeway. The law says drivers must exercise due care in passing you, even though you are in violation of the law. Time and time again, I have seen drivers fade away from a runner and over the centerline. They violate the law for your safety, so that you can have the convenience of running to and from you jogging path. That is selfishness of the highest order. I understand your argument (though we still completely disagree on the whole “violation of the law” bit), and I think that it is actually the driver that is getting pissed off (and taking some sort of twisted glee) that is being selfish. Though, you might be one of only a few, because I haven’t encountered such road rage in response to joggers. Most people seem to be able to coexist quite nicely. Fading over the centerline when there is no oncoming traffic to avoid people is not a violation of law. I just took my California driver’s test, and actually perused the book! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/151 "2005-09-02T15:00:19Z")
You still haven’t answered my question: Why don’t you walk to your preferred jogging path? Why is your convenience more important than the public safety? ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/152 "2005-09-02T15:30:02Z")
I’d so love to watch Perry Mason solve the Case of the Nautical Neuticle. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/153 "2005-09-02T15:56:40Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > You still haven’t answered my question: Why don’t you walk to your preferred jogging path? Why is your convenience more important than the public safety? Do you want me to answer the fair first question or the “when did you stop beating your wife” second one? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/154 "2005-09-02T16:10:41Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Do you want me to answer the fair first question or the “when did you stop beating your wife” second one? Does it make a difference? I see you are avoiding both of them; the candid answers must not be very good for your position. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/155 "2005-09-02T16:19:29Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Does it make a difference? I see you are avoiding both of them; the candid answers must not be very good for your position. Yes. It does make a difference. The first question is reasonable, and I’d be glad to answer it. The second is bullshit, and shows that you are not open to a reasonable answer to the first. It’s like a debate on abortion, and the person asks: Why do you feel you have the right to terminate a pregancy? Why is your right more important that murdering a baby? The first question asks a legitimate question and the second reveals an unwillingness to consider the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/156 "2005-09-02T16:23:06Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The first question asks a legitimate question… And yet, you would rather not answer it. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/157 "2005-09-02T16:39:00Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > And yet, you would rather not answer it. Got it. If that lets you think you won go for it, but your intent was pretty transparent. Seriously, if you can’t see that the way you’re asking me for an opinion is bullshit, then I was wasting time trying to parse the law with you. I’ll give you a chance. Ask me the question that you want answered in an even-handed manner. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/158 "2005-09-02T17:17:43Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I’ll give you a chance. You have already spoken volumes. Your attitude is clear. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/159 "2005-09-03T01:21:22Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Well, yes. You can leave the sidewalk and venture onto the road to avoid any part of the sidewalk that is dangererous, because it’s under repair, etc. But that’s not really your practice, or your argument here, is it? You run on the road, generally. You don’t return to the sidewalk when the immediate obstruction ends. Actually, nowadays I run on Country roads without sidewalks for the majority of my runs. However, yes, I do tend to stay on the shoulder on my Sunday runs during one section that contains a sidewalk near Shippensburg University. The sidewalk is very old, and there are very large trees and the vision is obstructed both to me and to drivers so that they can’t see me if they are turning or going in and out of driveways. The sidewalk is also broken and uneven due to roots. Once I turn into the University, it’s a straight shot on a clear good sidewalk (which I stay on,) down to the rails for trails. When I lived in New York, I ran in Central Park. In Jersey I staid off the sidewalk because the condition of it was bad and vision was bad. So, I use my judgement to make the best decision depending on circumstances. > [@](#): > > Agreed. Did **Fear** really say otherwise? If so, I disagree with him. Although the driver has the right of way, he still must avoid the pedestrian, if possible. Yes he did. Whenever he sees joggers he leans on the horn so they "jump out of their skins. > [@](#): > > Statutes aren’t always that mysterious. These certainly aren’t. You’re capable of comprehending them. If I were forced to choose between you and a random policeman, I’d bet your interpretation of any particular statute would be right more often that his. And if you do choose to take the word of someone other than yourself, maybe you should go with a lawyer over a cop? Heh. In a courtroom, I’ll take the lawyer. On the street, I don’t think I’d argue statutes with cops. I’d say “Yes, Officer” and do as I’m told. > [@](#): > > I wasn’t the first person to bring up Illinois law. But fair enough: Here’s what appears to be the applicable Pennsylvania statute: > > Cite: [http://www.dot.state.pa.us/pedestrian/web/laws.htm](http://www.dot.state.pa.us/pedestrian/web/laws.htm) > > I wonder: Didd Illinois crib from PA, or PA from Illinois? Ok. > [@](#): > > Was there a sidewalk? If so, I disagree with the cop. (I’m not saying that a driver has no responsibility to avoid the runner. He does. But all else being equal, the driver has the right of way.) No. No sidewalk. Country road with little traffic. Just happened that myself, a truck and another car crossing the center line all had their spacetime coordinates coincident. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234/160 "2005-09-03T01:49:27Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Yes he did. Whenever he sees joggers he leans on the horn so they "jump out of their skins. [The law in New Hampshire](http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXI/265/265-37.htm) requires that drivers shall give pedestrians in the roadway an audible signal when necessary; when a runner is endangering the public and himself by illegally running in the roadway, it is my civic duty to warn him of the potential hazard. I always exercise due care to avoid them, in accordance with the law. Since you are back, I would like to comment on this argument: > [@](#): > > I live in PA. I’m in a roadrunners club here. I’ve run in races. > > … > > I run races with other Road Runners clubs which typically have organized club runs listed on the internet. Typically, these are on roads. Lawyers, policemen, Doctors, and other upstanding and responsible citizens participate. They are advertised. If this were organized races, sponsored by a running club, they were in all likelihood covered by a permit from the local government, in which case they are entirely legal, the same a parade. However, running in a sanctioned race with a permit, and going out for your morning jog are two entirely different things. Unless you have a permit; do you have a permit? I didn’t think so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quit-jogging-in-the-street-you-neuticle/319234.md?page=9)