# quite sane anti terrorist idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817 "2001-09-25T23:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/21 "2001-09-26T22:48:42Z")
thought the juxtaposition of Ralph Nader and Alaskan oil drilling was a bit odd, too, and I suspected something even darker than mere ignorance when the subject of Israel popped out of nowhere. The subject of Israel did not pop out of nowhere. It was the very first post in regard to why we could not develop our own energy sources and leave this war torn region of the world. I did not bring Israel into this thread. This was given to me as a reason not to develop alternative enrgy. The ignorance is in abundance. Also I find one post most disgusting. The suggestion that we should save our untapped oil reserves for when the mid east supply is gone is laughable. Lack of oil supply constitutes finding our own but the repetitive loss of thousands of lives of Americans at the hands of those people in those nations that now supply our oil is not reason enough? Gimme a break. And anyone who believes our primary concern in the mid east is anything other than oil is fooling themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/22 "2001-09-26T23:08:12Z")
Yes, if it weren’t for oil the Middle East would be like most of Africa, geo-politically meaningless. However, it does have oil. And oil is not going to be replaced by anything in our lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/23 "2001-09-26T23:10:43Z")
There are only two possibilities: that, after mentioning Ralph Nader, port completely FORGOT about Nader. This has nothing to do with Nader or the green party. He is simply one of many people who have advocated the development of alternate fuels and have been largely ignored as a subject of major importance. So I ask would you rather spend untold billions on campaign after campaign in the mid east or should we pursue energy sources that would lessen our depedancy on this group of nations that seem to produce alot of anti US terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![Vince\_the\_Intangible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ba8739/32.png) [@Vince\_the\_Intangible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vince_the_Intangible)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/24 "2001-09-26T23:24:10Z")
Many pardons, Mr. Portable, but I don’t believe they’re requesting another reiteration, but rather, an explanation for said reiteration. We may have many alternate fuel sources, but patience is still in short supply. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/25 "2001-09-26T23:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > \*\*Yes, if it weren’t for oil the Middle East would be like most of Africa, geo-politically meaningless. > > However, it does have oil. And oil is not going to be replaced by anything in our lifetime. \*\* Thanks for some agreement here, Yes without oil the middle east would be meaningless to most of the world. However I feel compelled to point out that lots of folks in 1963 said we would never reach the moon in their lifetime. We are the strongest, smartest, most resourceful nation in the history of the world. Alternative energy exist in abundance and with the same effort it took to put a man on the moon we could have every family in the nation riding on batteries and methane in a very short term. (but I think we are going to spend the money blowing shit up) ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/26 "2001-09-26T23:59:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by portajon_ > I am not being a smart ass here. I was thinking of several adjectives for you, but I assure you, “smart” was not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/27 "2001-09-27T00:14:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > \*\*You register in Sept 2001, and start off by bashing our support for Israel under the pretense that you care about alternate fuels. As much as I agree that alternate fuel sources are of utmost importance, I just don’t think that you truly care. Maybe a pit thread would be more appropriate. \*\* Here again I must point out that I did not even mention Israel in the OP. The immediate response to why we should not develop alternate energy and get out of the mid east conflicts was Israel. This is why I began to question our support of Israel. Read the OP. If any answer to this question brings Israel into the picture something is wrong. I only mentioned the need to research alternative energy in order to get us out of the middle east conflicts which relvolve greatly around oil supply. I am asking the same question you are, what the heck does Israel have to do with energy alternatives. It almost seems that there is a movement to keep us dependent on oil for the purpose that we just might abandon Israel if we were not dependent on the mid east. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/28 "2001-09-27T00:36:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > **I really don’t see how support for Israel has anything to do with our lessening our dependance on middle-Eastern oil. The U.S. has played a constant game of pitting middle-eastern nations against each other in order to keep the prices low (remember the Iraq and Iran war** Prove that we somehow “pitted” [Iran and Iraq](http://ak.essortment.com/iranandiraqwa_rlnp.htm) against each other. **To Pit: To set against one another.** Yes, we “supported” Saddam by giving him arms, yes we once supplied Iran with arms for dubious reasons, you must do better than that to prove this ridiculous point. They were “pitted” against each other for hundreds of years without our help. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/29 "2001-09-27T00:38:22Z")
Just the last part is claptrap. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/30 "2001-09-27T00:43:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > > **I really don’t see how support for Israel has anything to do with our lessening our dependance on middle-Eastern oil. The U.S. has played a constant game of pitting middle-eastern nations against each other in order to keep the prices low (remember the Iraq and Iran war** > > Prove that we somehow “pitted” [Iran and Iraq](http://ak.essortment.com/iranandiraqwa_rlnp.htm) against each other. **To Pit: To set against one another.** Yes, we “supported” Saddam by giving him arms, yes we once supplied Iran with arms for dubious reasons, you must do better than that to prove this ridiculous point. They were “pitted” against each other for hundreds of years without our help. \*\* OK I have no idea whether or not we pitted these nations against one another but what does it say about us when you consider the fact that we supplied both sides with the means to kill one another more efficently? and what does this have to do with the idea that procurement of alternate energy supplies will help us out of middle east conflicts? This is the same as the first response to the op that brought Israel into the picture. This is about implementation of long term energy stategy and how it would affect our outlook on the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/31 "2001-09-27T00:45:37Z")
portajon wrote, in the OP: > [@](#): > > There is this guy named Ralph Nader…lots of folks call him a cook or weirdo. A cook? I swear, I had no idea Nader had any culinary skills. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/32 "2001-09-27T00:47:55Z")
Padeye wrote: > [@](#): > > Pure hydrogen must be made from water using as much energy in elecetricity as will be available in the hydrogen fuel. That electricity has to some from somewhere. To be fair, **portajon** did also say that we should “build more, bigger and safer nuke power plants” – which would supposedly be whence we’d get all the electricity to make hydrogen from water. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/33 "2001-09-27T00:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*portajon wrote, in the OP: > > > [@](#): > > > > There is this guy named Ralph Nader…lots of folks call him a cook or weirdo. > > A cook? I swear, I had no idea Nader had any culinary skills. \*\* He makes a mean green pea soup. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/34 "2001-09-27T01:02:21Z")
> [@](#): > > We are the strongest, smartest, most resourceful nation in the history of the world You’re from Luxemborg too? ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/35 "2001-09-27T01:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by treis \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > We are the strongest, smartest, most resourceful nation in the history of the world > > You’re from Luxemborg too? \*\* I do not appreciate the implication. The facts are facts tho Teis. Properly applied the strength of our nation, in my humble, ignorant, and otherwise loathed opinion, could achieve a tremendous degree of independence from oil and the nations we rely upon for it. That is the point. So do you have an opinion in Luxemborg or are you satisfied to just take cheap shots? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/36 "2001-09-27T02:40:00Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by portajon \* > OK I have no idea whether or not we pitted these nations against one another but what does it say about us when you consider the fact that we supplied both sides with the means to kill one another more efficently? and what does this have to do with the idea that procurement of alternate energy supplies will help us out of middle east conflicts? This is the same as the first response to the op that brought Israel into the picture. This is about implementation of long term energy stategy and how it would affect our outlook on the middle east. \*\* We, Russia, France, Belgium, China, and Israel sell weapons. That is by no means a comprehensive list. What does it mean? Nations want weapons. C’mon not this big national guilt trip so many people engage in. I, for one, try to have a little historical perspective, and do not view actions in a vacuum measuring them against some unattainable perfect ideal. We sold Iraq weapons to prevent Iran from winning and taking over Iraq. We gave Iran weapons one time to get hostages back, it worked. Was it right in a vacuum? No, but if we didn’t the Soviets would have in a second, or the French, the Chinese, etc… **Long-term energy strategy** : One solution, get everyone to shop [here](http://www.altenergystore.com/). How do we do that? Tax credits to all homeowners amortized over 5 or 10 years. What would that do? It could, potentially, turn millions of energy consumers into small time energy producers. If everyone who owned a home could produce 10% of their own energy, it would make an enormous difference. Windmills and solar panels are cost-prohibitive for many folks without a tax credit. Also, as you said, we need more nuclear plants. [France gets 75% of energy produced from nuclear power](http://ambafrance-us.org/america/embassy/nuclear/profile/table.htm). Drilling in Alaska? Personally, I would go for stricter [Corporate Average Fuel Economy](http://www.cnie.org/nle/air-10.html) standards before I go drilling all the oil out of the ground. It hurts me personally to have higher oil prices. Realistically, that is the best deterrent to excess consumption. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/37 "2001-09-27T02:56:57Z")
Beagle has posted the first serious reply to the problems we face with enrgy consumption and supply. The simple fact that it took this long to get a thoughful reply on long term energy stategy, in a room full of obviously otherwise intelligent people, goes a long way in supporting my OP. Why isn’t everyone extremely concerned with this issue? Especialy when we are by far the leading per capita consumers of energy. Couple this with the facts of where our prime energy sources come from presently and the great sacrifices of wealth, dignity, and human lives we expend to ensure those supplies and I can’t help but wonder why we aren’t all jumping up and down for implementation of whatever other resources are available and fund the neccessary R&D for all of the promising sources at hand. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/38 "2001-09-27T03:06:10Z")
My mistake. There has been one more thoughtful post on the subject by Beeblebox. So there are two. And by the way Beeble there is a solution of what to do with the waste. In europe there are maintained disposal sites deep in the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/39 "2001-09-27T16:08:35Z")
If you want thoughtful replies, you might put a little more thought into your composition, punctuation and sentence structure, and check your spelling. You may have some good ideas, but I, for one, find it difficult to take them seriously when they are presented in such a sloppy manner. Now, if you want my thoughtful replies to the question of alternative energy, you can find them [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87293). As to the question of Israel, no, you didn’t bring them up. But you advocated the US abandoning the Middle East. Our alliance with Israel is a major factor in any such decision. More discussion on the topic in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87995). ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/40 "2001-09-27T18:22:14Z")
I know, you’re not really a schmuk, you just play one on this MB. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by portajon \* > \*\*…How many lives of Americans and Arabs and Jews is it worth to continue to defend a spit of sand that hastory has proven will always be disputed. I am not anti-semitic or what ever the word is for those that hate Jews… \*\* Right, you’re not bashing anything… You may actually have a point somewhere, but it’s lost in a pile of s–t so deep, I can’t be bothered to dig for it. Alternate Energy=Good Support Israel=Good PortaPotty=?? By the way, if our dependance on Oil is such a terrible thing for the Nations who sell it, why the heck do they keep selling it? Why take our Money if they Hate Us? We can’t force them to sell us Oil, they can stop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817.md?page=3)