# quite sane anti terrorist idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817 "2001-09-25T23:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/41 "2001-09-28T01:38:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > \*\*I know, you’re not really a schmuk, you just play one on this MB. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by portajon \* > > \*\*…How many lives of Americans and Arabs and Jews is it worth to continue to defend a spit of sand that hastory has proven will always be disputed. I am not anti-semitic or what ever the word is for those that hate Jews… \*\* > > Right, you’re not bashing anything… > > You may actually have a point somewhere, but it’s lost in a pile of s–t so deep, I can’t be bothered to dig for it. > > Alternate Energy=Good > Support Israel=Good > PortaPotty=?? > By the way, if our dependance on Oil is such a terrible thing for the Nations who sell it, why the heck do they keep selling it? Why take our Money if they Hate Us? We can’t force them to sell us Oil, they can stop. \*\* Ok lets refocus on the op and dispense of the shit you can’t see through. 1. We are under attack by terrorist representing a host of nations in the middle east. There is a degree of support for them in all of these nations be it money, shelter, or public opinion save Israel. 2. There are some clear cut reasons why they have targeted us. Our mere presence in the Holy land is enough to get them started not to mention “accidental” missile strikes and the causualties suffered at our hands, our support of Israel to name a few. If you are one of the misguided souls who believes they would target us simply because they see us as infidels you can stop here. They don’t have nearly as big a problem with infidels as with infidels in the Holy land. 3. If we were not dependent on oil our interest in the middle east would be minimal. If you don’t believe this stop here and research world oil consumption and production. The US consumption compared to the rest of the world is almost staggering. The mid east production compared to the rest of the world is also staggering. 4. The heart of my thread is that, rather than continue to pour billions into efforts to stabilize this region and thus our oil supply, WHY NOT direct a few billion at alternative enrgy? The question is WHY NOT? Can we not afford it? Is there no compelling evidence for these resources? WHY NOT build nuclear power plants? Why not convince Americans to stop driving the Lincoln, the big ol’ Chevy truck that you never haul anything in. Sport around the neighborhood and to the local Zip mart in the golf cart instead of the Suburban. Tell me WHY NOT. (without being a selfish lush). ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/42 "2001-09-28T18:42:42Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by portajon \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Ok lets refocus on the op and dispense of the shit you can’t see through.\*\* Fair enough, let’s > [@](#): > > 1. We are under attack by terrorist representing a host of nations in the middle east. There is a degree of support for them in all of these nations be it money, shelter, or public opinion save Israel. It’s nice that you can figure it all out like that, please call the CIA and make their job easier. Yes, there are terrorist supporters “in all of these nations”, and there are also people doing business with us - why don’t these champiions of truth and justice (from their point of view, terrorists from ours) just deal with the traitors in their own countries doing business with us, and therefore bringing us to the holy land? > [@](#): > > 1. There are some clear cut reasons why they have targeted us. Our mere presence in the Holy land is enough to get them started not to mention “accidental” missile strikes and the causualties suffered at our hands, our support of Israel to name a few. If you are one of the misguided souls who believes they would target us simply because they see us as infidels you can stop here. They don’t have nearly as big a problem with infidels as with infidels in the Holy land. Please, you have not stated anything near Clear Cut. Our mere presence was REQUESTED, not by just anyone, but by the ruling Saudi Government, again, the people who feel we should not be there should take it up with them. OK, we can take our forces out today. Then what? Let’s say we stop buying the Oil today, that solves it in your mind? Remeber dim-wit, we supported the Taliban, then stopped whent their war with the USSR was over, now they hate us! We are not on their soil, why all the Anti-US sentiment then? Stop buying Oil today, and you’ll see just how nice these guys will be. > [@](#): > > 1. If we were not dependent on oil our interest in the middle east would be minimal. If you don’t believe this stop here and research world oil consumption and production. The US consumption compared to the rest of the world is almost staggering. The mid east production compared to the rest of the world is also staggering. No arguement, we use more Oil than any other nation. See above for relevence. > [@](#): > > 1. The heart of my thread is that, rather than continue to pour billions into efforts to stabilize this region and thus our oil supply, WHY NOT direct a few billion at alternative enrgy? … I could not tell that was the heart of your thread. But if it is, I already said I agree with you there. All alternate energy should be explored, and the most practical should have the heaviest investment. Solar, Hydro, Geothermal…Any renewable energy is preferable to Oil, no arguement. Nuclear is another debate. > [@](#): > > without being a selfish lush What do my drinking habits have to do with anything? You want to start some real name calling? Open a pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/43 "2001-09-28T20:34:53Z")
If you want to be taken seriously, how about actually presenting a fully thought out proposal? Figure out how much energy we use, how many nuclear power plants would be required to supply that much, and calculate how much that would cost. And then you can explain why we should react to a vile act by doing exactly what the perpetrators want us to do. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/44 "2001-09-28T21:37:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*If you want to be taken seriously, how about actually presenting a fully thought out proposal? Figure out how much energy we use, how many nuclear power plants would be required to supply that much, and calculate how much that would cost. > > And then you can explain why we should react to a vile act by doing exactly what the perpetrators want us to do. \*\* Good Idea Ryan. I will get back to you with the comprehensive plan. It will be at least as comprehensive as whether we should use the term “towelhead”, or “nigger”, or if it is ok to kill the families of the terrorist. This is a positive idea, unlike alot of the ideas I have heard so far. I am not, nor will I, claim to be an expert on alternative energy.However, I am sure it deserves alot more discussion amoung supposed intelligent people than the time I see here devoted to whom I might offend with the term towel head. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/45 "2001-09-29T01:06:07Z")
Portajon, we have many, many interests in the Middle-East, only some of which have to do with oil. For instance, we have an interest in not being blown to hell. I myself have an interest in that. Pakistan is a nuclear power, and under threat from the same Islamic Fundamentalists that hold power in Afghanistan. How would you like Mr. Bin Laden to get his hands on 30 nuclear bombs? Israel also has nuclear weapons, so before you cheer too loudly for its demise, I suggest you think long and hard about what would happen if Israel’s nuclear program wound up in the hands of, say, Saddam Hussein. Who, by the way, would have nuclear weapons NOW if Israel hadn’t done the world a favor and blown up his nuclear program years before the Gulf War. We also have an interest in not being gassed or stricken with biological contaminants. Iraq has a well-developed chemical warfare program. We also have a major interest in defending our allies, as we have agreed to do through treaty. Israel is the only Democracy in that whole region. It has been our strong Ally since its creation. Many, many Americans have friends and relatives who live there. If we stop supporting Israel, they will be subjugated or dead. BTW, our support for Israel has nothing to do with oil, and in fact makes the task of procuring oil in the Middle-East more difficult for us, because it’s the enemies of Israel that have it. All the alternative energy in the world won’t change that. We have an interest in standing up to aggression wherever we find it, because history has taught us over and over again that isolationism is a really bad idea, and that appeasement generally leads to even greater atrocity. If we ‘pull out’ of the middle-east and stop trying to improve that region and assert some control over the governments there, we may find that 20 years from now we are staring down 100,000 Osama Bin Ladens, armed with thousands of nuclear warheads and the means to deliver them. Your assertion that Osama Bin Laden hates us because we interfere in the Middle-East is at best, incomplete. Islamic radicals see the U.S. as the ‘Great Satan’ not because the U.S. interferes, but because the U.S. EXISTS. They hate our western values, they hate our pluralism, they hate the way we treat women as equals, they hate our open sexuality, and more than anything, they hate the fact that their children are seduced by our lifestyle. They see us as a great corruptor. They would destroy us in a heartbeat if they could, even if we all stayed home and played tiddleywinks or smelted all our cars and made bicycles. This is the problem with people who keep claiming that POVERTY is the problem in the middle-east. It’s not. In fact, Islamic Radicals HATE western aid, because it’s that aid that they see as tempting and corrupting. They allow western aid organizations into their countries only to the extent that they prevent mass starvation and the collapse of their regimes, but they hate them all the same. Islamic Radicals see us as infidels. I don’t know if you read your history, but Islam has been hostile and aggressive towards Christianity and Judaism for over a thousand years, long before Oil was something that ever mattered. Moderate Muslims have learned to turn away from the more militant teachings of the Koran, but there are plenty of people willing to carry the battle to us just because of who we are, not because of what we do. Methinks you would do well to crack a few books and actually learn something about this. ---
**Author:** ![portajon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c0e974/32.png) [@portajon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/portajon)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/46 "2001-09-29T21:57:13Z")
Methinks you are right Sam Stone. .I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. I will not make simplistic, knee jerk post. By the way Sam, does your handle have anything to do with John Prine? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/47 "2001-09-30T01:03:22Z")
"Sam Stone came home, to his wife and family, After serving in the conflict overseas. And the time that he served, had shattered all his nerve, And left a little shrapnel in his knee. But the morphine eased the pain, And the grass grew 'round his brain, And gave him all the confidence he lacked, With a purple heart, and a monkey on his back… There’s a hole in Daddy’s arm, where all the money goes, And Jesus Christ died for nothing, I suppose. Little pitchers have big ears, Don’t stop to count the years, Sweet songs never last too long, On broken radios…" Yeah, I like John Prine. He’s the man. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2001, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/48 "2001-09-30T01:23:07Z")
All right Sam, you won the booby prize for being the one who finally knocked some sense into portajon about Israel. Now who got some spare booby to give to Sam? Back to the OP. Portajon does make a point about not having our economy dependent on the whims of OPEC. Negative thing about this is that the new plants will be potential targets of attacks by terrorists who know this and have an investment in Middle East oil. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817/49 "2001-09-30T01:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > \*\*Yes, if it weren’t for oil the Middle East would be like most of Africa, geo-politically meaningless. > \*\* Hail, you are quite wrong. Africa, with the possible exception of Russia, as a region has more natural resorces than anywhere else in the world, from oil to gems. The political climate, alas, has been for the most part too volatile to cull these resources into a viable economy for the people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quite-sane-anti-terrorist-idea/83817.md?page=2)