# Quiz: who do you sue? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 16, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879 "2005-03-16T21:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/61 "2005-03-17T00:34:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I too think that suing the IDF et al is a good idea - then, the facts will come out before the court. Sue 'em all and let the judge sort it out, right? (I’m not attacking you btw, that just sounded neat) What ticks me off is that people have to pay to defend themselves from these asinine suits. Caterpllar shouldn’t have to pay one cent, they should just send the janitor down to the court to tell these morons to fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/62 "2005-03-17T00:35:45Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > Yep, such is war. There’s another thing about war. It takes more than one human being to fight one. One of the tactics of war is retreat. When properly applied, it can be used to gain an advantage. Corrie missed that part. And I think Patton said that war wasn’t about dying for your country (or cause in this case), it’s making the other guy die for his. She evidently didn’t read any Patton, either. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/63 "2005-03-17T00:36:39Z")
> [@LindyHopper](#): > > Yes, she was risking her life. No doubt that, on some level, she knew that. It’s her right to do so if she wishes. You nailed it on the head right there. It was her choice to stand in front of the 'dozer. Why should anyone have to pay for her stupidity? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/64 "2005-03-17T00:40:24Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > And what happened could have been a paradigm shift in protester/bulldozer relations. “Well, I’ll be! That sumbitch always stopped before, I don’t think standing in the way is gonna work any more!”. So if somebody would have been previously plowed, maybe Corrie would be with us today. Who’s to say. Aw, crap. I knew my lack of completeness on that would come back to bite me. **Lindyhopper** correctly interpreted my remarks. I’m unaware if subsequent to Ms. Corrie’s death the protestors changed their tactics, the IDF changed its tactics (though I do know they added some mirrors to the 'dozers), or what. I was simply saying that it seems unlikely to me that IDF intentionally and secretly changed its tactics in a way that resulted in the death of a photogenic American in full view of dozens of witnesses and at least one camera. Why risk a slap from the State Department (which they got) and the negative publicity (which they also got)? ---
**Author:** ![FellowshipoftheBling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@FellowshipoftheBling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FellowshipoftheBling)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/65 "2005-03-17T00:42:31Z")
> [@LindyHopper](#): > > Yes, she was risking her life. No doubt that, on some level, she knew that. It’s her right to do so if she wishes. > > But: The IDF people on the scene (or person, if that was the case) are _human beings_, who (in my estimation) made a decision at some point to _run a bulldozer_ into another human being. As far as I’m concerned, that should be actionable. Not, not really. The IDF people on the scene made a decision to run a bulldozer into a building. Some retarded student CHOSE to stand in front of it and not move knowing full well the consequences of her actions. Why should other people be responsible for her life when she wasn’t? It was her choice that her life was less important than her cause, if she didn’t care to save herself why should anyone else be held responsible? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/66 "2005-03-17T00:47:39Z")
These things are straight out of Mad Max, look at the pictures to see the size. My understanding is that the line of sight is such that is someone is closer then 30 feet, the operator can’t see them. You just don’t stand in front of these things. [![](https://www.jwz.org/images/2004/48.jpg) ](https://www.jwz.org/images/2004/48.jpg) > **[Caterpillar D9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_D9)** > > The Caterpillar D9 is a large track-type tractor designed and manufactured by Caterpillar Inc. It is usually sold as a bulldozer equipped with a detachable large blade and a rear ripper attachment. > The D9, with 354 kW (474 hp) of gross power and an operating weight of 49 tons, is in the upper end of Caterpillar's track-type tractors, which range in size from the D3 57 kW (77 hp), 8 tons, to the D11 698 kW (935 hp), 104 tons. > The size, durability, reliability, and low operating costs have made... ---
**Author:** ![LindyHopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@LindyHopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LindyHopper)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/67 "2005-03-17T00:48:05Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > And what happened could have been a paradigm shift in protester/bulldozer relations. “Well, I’ll be! That sumbitch always stopped before, I don’t think standing in the way is gonna work any more!”. So if somebody would have been previously plowed, maybe Corrie would be with us today. Who’s to say. True enough. ---
**Author:** ![sweetfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@sweetfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweetfreak)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/68 "2005-03-17T00:51:02Z")
I think you are all missing the point. Evidently this poor young lady’s shoe laces were untied, and she tripped over them while trying to get out of the way of the 'dozer. So it wasn’t her fault she was killed. It was the shoe manufacturer’s, for not having a selection of laceless, velcro sneakers. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LindyHopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@LindyHopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LindyHopper)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/69 "2005-03-17T00:50:52Z")
> [@FellowshipoftheBling](#): > > Not, not really. The IDF people on the scene made a decision to run a bulldozer into a building. Some retarded student CHOSE to stand in front of it and not move knowing full well the consequences of her actions. Why should other people be responsible for her life when she wasn’t? It was her choice that her life was less important than her cause, if she didn’t care to save herself why should anyone else be held responsible? I guess I’m not really saying they should be financially responsible, given the state of the law. However, the fact that they would _feel_ such a lack of responsibility as to kill her with a bulldozer really creeps me out. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/70 "2005-03-17T00:58:46Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Sue 'em all and let the judge sort it out, right? (I’m not attacking you btw, that just sounded neat) > > What ticks me off is that people have to pay to defend themselves from these asinine suits. Caterpllar shouldn’t have to pay one cent, they should just send the janitor down to the court to tell these morons to fuck off. Well, I’m used to Canadian-style costs rules - basically, loser pays. That helps to limit the frivolous lawsuit - if they are frivolous, it carries the risk of paying the other guy’s costs. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/71 "2005-03-17T01:04:28Z")
My first thought when I heard this story on the news this morning was “what a bunch of dumbasses.” Well, except for Caterpillar; I’ve been though one of their manufacturing facilities (I’ve got a hat and a t-shirt to prove it!), and they’re pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![LindyHopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@LindyHopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LindyHopper)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/72 "2005-03-17T01:06:16Z")
Hmm. On reflection, my post sounds a little fuzzy-wuzzy (and backpedal-y). What I tried to say is that I’m really less concerned with the legal/financial aspects of the case than with the moral/ethical aspects. I might concede that the IDF has no actual legal/financial responsibility, but I personally believe that they should feel a sense of responsibility for having killed a noncombatant (in the sense that she, personally, posed no danger to the bulldozer operator or any other IDF person; I’ll grant, as per **manhattan** , that if the building had housed a tunnel entrance, there could have been dire consequences to not knocking over the building). Come to think of it, that sounded pretty fuzzy-wuzzy too. Oh, well. At least it helped me clarify my thoughts. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/73 "2005-03-17T01:11:45Z")
The bulldozer posed no threat to her. All she had to do was move. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/74 "2005-03-17T01:42:15Z")
> [@LindyHopper](#): > > sounds like a case of “She thinks I’ll stop? I’ll show her”. Mebbe he was thinking she would move away at the last minute. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/75 "2005-03-17T02:37:19Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Mebbe he was thinking she would move away at the last minute. Just like she was thinkingthat it’d stop at the last moment…oops ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/76 "2005-03-17T09:04:25Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Mebbe he was thinking she would move away at the last minute. IIRC from the last thread about this, the driver thought she did move. She was in front of it yelling into a megaphone. Due to the armor he was having trouble seeing her so he went by voice. She slipped and dropped the megaphone. He couldn’t see and figured that she moved. I think the thread was in great debates, but its 4am and my sick self isn’t asleep and my dope search fu ain’t working. :smack: So **lindyhopper** , it sounds like there was no malice on the part of the driver. This was a tragic accident. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/77 "2005-03-17T09:15:50Z")
Woohoo, double post. :smack: Found the [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276631&highlight=Rachel+Corrie). [Here’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:D9-idf_pic214.jpg) a better picture of the dozer in question. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie) is the article I was thinking of. I was off on the megaphone part, but it looks like she did lose her footing and the driver likely had trouble seeing her. Quoted from Tom Dale > [@](#): > > “The bulldozer built up earth in front of it. Its blade was slightly dug into the earth. She began to stand up. The earth was pushed over her feet. She tried to climb on top of the earth, to avoid being overwhelmed. She climbed to the point where her shoulders were above the top lip of the blade. She was standing on this pile of earth. As the bulldozer continued, she lost her footing, and she turned and fell down this pile of earth. Then it seemed like she got her foot caught under the blade. She was helpless, pushed prostrate, and looked absolutely panicked, with her arms out, and the earth was piling itself over her. The bulldozer continued so that the place where she fell down was directly beneath the cockpit. I think she would have been between the treads. The whole [incident] took place in about six or seven seconds,” Also worth noting is this. > [@](#): > > Because the Caterpillar D9 bulldozers have a restricted field of vision with several blind spots, Israeli army regulations normally require that other soldiers assist in directing bulldozer drivers, but the Israeli army commander of the Gaza Strip said in an interview broadcast on Israeli television that, on the day of Corrie’s death, soldiers had to stay in their armored vehicles and were not able to direct the bulldozer, or arrest the protesters, because of a potential threat from Palestinian snipers. He also said that Israeli soldiers may have been handling other ISM activists instead of watching over the bulldozer. The ISM activists in the vicinity say they were not being “handled” by soldiers at the time of the incident ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/78 "2005-03-17T10:10:08Z")
This is bullshit. Some of you are suggesting that the bulldozer driver murdered her. That seems pretty ridiculous to me. I don’t know about you but I know of nobody who would willingly run someone over with a bulldozer. It sounds way more likely that it was an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/79 "2005-03-17T15:00:34Z")
> [@LindyHopper](#): > > So you think she deserved to _die_ because she wouldn’t get out of the way? Ummm…yes. It’s called terminal stupidity, or Darwinism in action. If someone is stupid enough to walk in front of a moving bulldozer and really expect to not be injured or killed, then one should be prepared to accept the consequences. And if the parents raised somebody to be that stupid, they should be suing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879/80 "2005-03-17T15:06:49Z")
A lot of people commenting here seem to be unfamiliar with the circumstances, so I’d urge them to read some of the previous threads or do a google search. (Read the indymedia and littlegreenfootballs versions to cancel out the inevitable slants.) Eyewitness reports are conflicting, but basically the girl was spending much of the day playing chicken with the bulldozer. Even wearing high visibility gear, that’s a low percentage game to be playing. If the IDF was negligent, it was for allowing the protestors to be in the area at all (and I don’t know what their legal right to do so was). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quiz-who-do-you-sue/294879.md?page=5)