# Quotes that should unite the world against fundamentalist islam, but alas...will not. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505 "2002-06-05T16:21:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/41 "2002-06-06T03:47:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > > No doubt Collounsbury will ‘correct’ me with a stream of invective if he thinks I got it wrong. And Sam do I get a gold star if I bow and scrape and say you did a good job? You did after all, but preemptive complaining strikes me as a bit tedious although perhaps not a bad tactic. > [@](#): > > However, there IS a strain of fanatical Islam, promoted primarily by the Saudis and propped up with huge gobs of oil money. This sick branch of the religion has been infiltrating other Muslim countries and even western countries. It has a very strong hold on the Arab world. al-Quaida and the Taliban are direct offshoots of this strain. Unfortunately, due to the conflation of church and state in the Arab world, Wahabbism has a tremendous influence on young people, because it has become state doctrine in schools, mosques, and the airwaves. So this problem is getting worse, and not better. (a) Wahhabite theology has not taken a very strong hold in the Arab world. It is excessively influential, but the very fact Saudi society looks so bloody different from everyone else rather indicates the opposite. (b) I question the degree of confusion of Church and State, I have met very few Muslims who want a theocracy, a la Iran. A larger number who express inchoate desires for a reestablishment of the Khalifate, but this seems to be less a religious movtivation per se than an expression of frustration with the general decadence of their (western supported, read USA) dictatorial governments. Even the real extremists make a distinction between the role of theologian and that of the Amir. Frankly I believe this point is exagerated but it is discussable. © Wahhabite theology is only the state theology of Saudi Arabia, if your comments are meant to include the Arab world generally they’re factually wrong, and ludicrously wrong outside of the Gulf. (d) The influence however is undeniable and insidious although it runs into other factors which I will note. (f) the Taleban are an indigenous Afghan movement, with a parallel development to Wahhabisme, not inspited by it. Quite different in many, many respects. > [@](#): > > There is a larger, but still very much minority subset of the population in the Arab world that gives tacit support to the more extreme elements for the simple reason that they happen to agree with some of their goals, if not their methods or ideology. And there is a large amount of resentment and anger at the U.S. throughout the Arab world, and the radical nutbars are bloodying the noses of the Americans and Israelis, so more moderate people look the other way. Very fair resume. > [@](#): > > As soon as moderate Muslims realize that these radicals are a threat to the Muslim world as well as the west, I think you’ll see support for them drop dramatically. You can see that in Palestine today - after Israel rained destruction on Jenin and Ramallah, Arafat’s popularity plummeted. But before that, his popularity was sky-high. This is simply silly. Firstly, it is factually incorrect on its face. You really need to stop reading that segment of the press which indulges in ideological fantasies, it’s unhealthy. Not that I expect you shall be able to do so given your predilictions. Arafat’s popularity, which had been at its nadir, rebounded when Sharon began his Iron Fist policy towards the PA, by all accounts. A dip was noted in the press after his release at about the time of Jenin/Ramallah connected it appears with frustration in re his apparent, from refugee POV, caving in to Israeli demands. Whatever is going is quite unclear, but it hardly makes your first point, indeed **rather the opposite**. Rather to make this point, one would need to rely on actual analysis. Let me suggest Algeria and Egypt as cases which make your point. In both cases the appeal of the radicals collapsed as they moved to more and more bloody tactics, in part driven in desperation. However, that is not to say secular governments, almost all of which stink of corruption, have gained in appeal. > [@](#): > > If you want to look for one of the major roots of the problem, you have plenty of clues in the OP. Hardly, you would need to read something like what Tamerlane has cited and undestand the origins and centres of the Salafiste movements, the Ikhwaan and their influence, etc. Again Sam getting his facts from the usual suspect, gets it wrong: > [@](#): > > The Taliban and al-Qaida have a huge percentage of Saudis among them. The Taleban are an indigenous Pashtun movement rooted in extreme conservatism of the tribes and a reaction against the chaos of the 1990s in Afghanistan. Their theological origins are different than that of al-Qaeda (regard their differing attitudes towards imagery, al-Qaeda groups are hardly obscurantiste Luddites like the Taleban.), although Wahhabite thinking seems to have gained some hold. But rather more likely are Ikhwaani influences. al-Qaeda is international and its brains are Egyptian and Algerian, not Saudi. A fluke that the hijackers were mostly Saudi, and note the Saudis were mostly suckers, foot soldiers. [quote] Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi national. Saudi money has financed many terrorist attacks. [quote] In a tedious technical sense Osama is nothing now, stripped of his citizenship, that aside, it’s not clear how much Saudi funds (and in what sense) have gone to terror and what kind of terror. > [@](#): > > Saudi Arabia is a problem. Well, it is one fucked up place from many POV. > [@](#): > > It is the cultural home of Islam, and the keeper of the holiest sites. Cultural home of Islam? No, not really. Damascus. Cairo. Even Baghdad. Saudi Arabia? No. You seriously misunderstand the role of the al-Haramian in Islamic society. Sure, the holy of holies is in Saudi Arabia, that does not make the Saudis automatically culturally influential, and never has. Quite the contrary, Saudi influence fights an uphill battle against ingrained prejudice against the area. Some points to illustrate: Egyptians habitually state (based on Egypt sending teachers to the Gulf throughout the oil boom period, “We taught them to read.” – and usually use a rather condesending verb form. North Africans have two sayings based off of the same idea: l-khaliijine houm djouj sifr – the Gulfies, they’re double zeros, meaning they’re idiots. Similarly the term 'aroubi – literally meaning ‘very Arab, truly Arab’ with the sense of Bedouine like the Saudis, has the colloq. meaning ‘stupid, uncouthe.’ There is little or no automatic respect that the Saudis gain in the Arab world for the accident of geography, and it is described in those terms, that Mecca and Medina are there. Wahhabite theology has gained ground, but far more important are the Egyptian based movements with intellectual and cultural respect. It is no accident that Egyptians figure so prominently, followed by Algerians, in the extremist movements, for they bring intellectual heft, cultural respect and real experience in resistance/underground tactics. The Saudis, everyone thinks of them as largely stupid, gullible moneybags – with the odd pious simpleton as a good example. > [@](#): > > And its culture is sick, and its oil money is allowing its sick culture to propagate throughout the Arab world, and the world in general. At some point, this problem has to be solved. \*\* Solved? Well as to solutions: There are no short term solutions. Tactical security actions are likely to have long-term bad effects. Israel’s tacit support of Hamas against the PLO in the past decade (another brilliant move we can attribute to the lump presently in office) has had – and if I read the situation right will continue to have as inexplicably Sharonistas obsess over Arafat and give the real impossible folks an utter pass – long term negative effects. Policy based on an actual understanding of recent Islamic history and some more sophisticated engagement with the less-extreme forms of political Islam willing to work in a pluralist system(\*) would probably be helpful, whatever the simplistic moralist moaning and pissing about terrorists and what not. Ultimately, the region has to be allowed to find a path reconcilable with its cultural traditions. Nattering on about how “they” are not like “us” in some condescending bigotted fashion gets one no where. The demographic boom is a real problem, lots of young men with little to do. Helping solve the basket case that is Arab economies would help immensely – e.g. Tunisia while a dictatorship was a pretty well-functioning economy with decent growth, fairly high standards of living and oddly enough pretty well-functioning goverment (all things considered). And among the lowest incidence as far as I read of Islamist activity. And a pop explosion that was headed off, helping take off the demographic pressure. Whereas Saudi Arabia becomes poorer and poorer, despite the images of vast wealth, a real driver is the growing poverty. 6 kids a woman does that. (\*: one of the more egregious idiocies I have read in certain sections of the press which our dear Sam reads are the bad analogies to communism and the cold war, egregious for the afactual recounting of the latter and their piss-poor understanding of the region.) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/42 "2002-06-06T04:00:04Z")
Arafat’s popularity. These were the only actual numbers I could find offhand. All the rest of the hits for “arafat popularity poll” were for Reuters-type news articles saying merely “Arafat popularity soars during confinement”, sometimes with mentions of the cheering crowds that surrounded him when he came out, but no numbers. December, 2001. [http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2001/p3a.html#popularity](http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2001/p3a.html#popularity) > [@](#): > > Arafat’s popularity reaches 36% compared to 33% last July and 46% in July 2000 May, 2002. [http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2002/p4a.html](http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2002/p4a.html) > [@](#): > > The poll shows that Arafat’s popularity has remained almost unchanged since December standing at 35%. Granted, it’s not Gallup, but it’s still interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/43 "2002-06-06T04:03:22Z")
I agree the Taliban was homegrown, but it appears to have been propped up and influenced by the Saudis. Tapes were shown after the fall of the Taliban showing them conferring with a Saudi Prince, and of course Bin Laden is Saudi, and he propped up the Taliban as well. I wasn’t aware that there were as many Egyptians as Saudis in al-Quaida. The last number I heard was that it was estimated that 70% of al-Qaida were Saudi nationals. If that’s wrong, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/44 "2002-06-06T04:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe subtle pressure ( including a much more active and intelligent self-promotion in the area ) can be exerted without causing a collapse. I do think it will take some time. Rebuilding societies generally does. **Tamarlane** , I dunno, I’d call that optimism. 🙂 (Hoping for the best, DSeid) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/45 "2002-06-06T04:20:09Z")
I agree the Taliban was homegrown, but it appears to have been propped up and influenced by the Saudis. Tapes were shown after the fall of the Taliban showing them conferring with a Saudi Prince, and of course Bin Laden is Saudi, and he propped up the Taliban as well. I wasn’t aware that there were as many Egyptians as Saudis in al-Quaida. The last number I heard was that it was estimated that 70% of al-Qaida were Saudi nationals. If that’s wrong, I stand corrected. As for Arafat’s popularity, I was referring to media reports in the last week or so that Arafat’s popularity is dropping as critics start to organize against him. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/46 "2002-06-06T04:33:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by JohnBckWLD \* > \*\* A small aside: Have you ever seen one of Arafat’s statements condemning terrorism and calling for an end of violence against civilians? Sure we all have. But doesn’t it bother you that he always carefully selects the category civilian? It bothers me, Israel doesn’t have all that many civilians due to the fact every adult is required to join the military so that their small nation can be defended against aggression._\* Just as a side note, Arafat is a really bad example to use if you’re looking for statements from Muslim fundimentalists/advocates of political Islam. Arafat is pretty much a secular nationalist, and except for a brief stint in the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in the 50’s, hasn’t had much to do with religious groups. Arafat is married to a Christian. Fatah and the PLO has always had Christian membership, and, in fact, PLA’s Minister of Higher Education, who’s been a longtime PLO member, Dr. Hanan Ashwari, is Christian ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/47 "2002-06-06T05:54:48Z")
**Tam** and **Coullounsbury** : Thanks for the typically insightful posts. At some point, could someone start a thread on Gilles Kepel’s thesis? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/48 "2002-06-06T06:12:04Z")
originally posted by **Tamarlane** > [@](#): > > … these governments stroke with one hand and beat with the other. Hey, what they do when they look at centerfolds is no concern of mine! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/49 "2002-06-06T08:22:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SMUsax \* > **Most of the countries that are predominately Muslim will have you shot if you tell them that you aren’t Muslim.** Yep, them free cups of tea I kept getting offered sure hurt some. The hospitality nearly killed me too, smiling back all the time. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/50 "2002-06-06T10:17:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by SMUsax > **Most of the countries that are predominately Muslim will have you shot if you tell them that you aren’t Muslim.** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Princhester \* > \*\* > > Yep, them free cups of tea I kept getting offered sure hurt some. The hospitality nearly killed me too, smiling back all the time. \*\* And the way they where incredibly polite and helpful to me and my friends. Bastards everyone of them :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/51 "2002-06-06T10:44:45Z")
**JohnBckWLD** and **SMUsax** , may I respectfully enquire as to the sources of the information on which you base your opinions of Islam? And may I respectfully suggest that you change, or at least considerably add to, these sources, with others that reflect a more accurate description? Perhaps a little trip to North Africa, South-East Asia, Arabia - or even London - might give you a less inaccurate understanding. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/52 "2002-06-06T13:18:59Z")
I think their opinions are plucked straight out of their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/53 "2002-06-06T14:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*Perhaps this is true in theory, but from what I can tell of Islam in practice, there is a great interest among Muslims regarding the spiritual status of other people. \*\* True, but that comes from the human desire to be an ass. People of all religions think they are the best so they must convince others. Also in Islam it’s just so damn easy to convert, you don’t even need a “mufti” around, just say: “Ash hadu alla ilaha illa Allah, wa ash hadu anna Mohammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu.” In the presence of a Muslim (this is even not necessary, just say it and mean it). After that you are officially a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/54 "2002-06-06T14:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by efrem \* > \*\*True, but that comes from the human desire to be an ass. People of all religions think they are the best so they must convince others. Also in Islam it’s just so damn easy to convert, you don’t even need a “mufti” around, just say: “Ash hadu alla ilaha illa Allah, wa ash hadu anna Mohammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu.” In the presence of a Muslim (this is even not necessary, just say it and mean it). After that you are officially a Muslim. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/55 "2002-06-06T14:16:19Z")
Fucking IE, sorry about the empty post. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by efrem \* > Also in Islam it’s just so damn easy to convert, you don’t even need a “mufti” around, just say: “Ash hadu alla ilaha illa Allah, wa ash hadu anna Mohammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu.” In the presence of a Muslim (this is even not necessary, just say it and mean it). After that you are officially a Muslim. Efrem: that’s not the proper Shahada. The Shahada is Ashaadu inna la ila(ha) ilaa Allah wa Mohammed(an) rasoul Allah. I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammed is his prophet. The parentheticals I added in to reflect declensions which one hears in hyper-formal Quranic recitations. Your rendition abduhou wa rasouluhu is “his servant and his prophet” which is non-standard, although perfect accurate I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/56 "2002-06-06T14:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\*Fucking IE, sorry about the empty post. > > Efrem: that’s not the proper Shahada. The Shahada is > > Ashaadu inna la ila(ha) ilaa Allah wa Mohammed(an) rasoul Allah. > > I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammed is his prophet. > > The parentheticals I added in to reflect declensions which one hears in hyper-formal Quranic recitations. Your rendition abduhou wa rasouluhu is “his servant and his prophet” which is non-standard, although perfect accurate I suppose. \*\* _bowing before the mighty Arabic wizard that is **Collounsbury** _ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/57 "2002-06-06T15:00:51Z")
I should note that I have often heard “odd” variations such as Khaadim allah (God’s servant) in sub-Saharan Africa. I would guess that these “non-standard” versions may have been more widespread in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/58 "2002-06-06T15:24:25Z")
Someone who knows a litlle more of muslim history will surely correct me. I seem to remember that whne all Europe was a bigot as possible (middle ages) jewish people prospered in muslim kingdoms. In that time arabs where the superior in tolerance, civilazation, etc. I think then that we shouldn’t blame Islam but other factors. We have to remember that the situation in the mid west is a litte more complicated than a fight of “cultures” or religions. People that speak of a clash of civilazations are only taking the simple way out (they are different, then they are our enemies). As I said things are a little more complex than that. Israel is considered by arabs as the invader (they have good reasons to believe so, at least I think that). USA is seen as Israel protector (again every evidence points that USA has not been a honest negotiator). I think that nationalism explins the problem better than religion but then again I am not an expert. All of the above doesn’t mean that I justify WTC, suicide bombers, etc (in case december or monty are reading this). I regret the use of violence, I don’t care how good their reasons may seem. Finally I’ve never read the Koran but if we are going to “qualify” a religion by it’s sacred book, as a catholic please don’t read the old testament. I would hate to consider myself a rapist, murderer, thief, bigot, etc 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/59 "2002-06-06T15:24:43Z")
Just to back up the astute research of **Duck Duck Goose** on the last page, [_Time_](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,259356,00.html) is reporting that “Arafat’s popularity has plummeted since the end of the siege of Ramallah, in no small part because of the perception that he negotiated his own freedom at the expense of men like Saadat, even as the circumstances of ordinary Palestinians continue to deteriorate under Israeli blockade.” That contradicts my previous impression that his popularity had risen since the Israeli offensive, but it’s also clear that he was unpopular even before the offensive. Corruption and incompetence will do that to anyone, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505/60 "2002-06-06T19:55:45Z")
Am I the only one disappointed at seeing all the ignorance and stereotyping perpetuated in this thread? ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quotes-that-should-unite-the-world-against-fundamentalist-islam-but-alas-will-not/112505.md?page=4)