# R.I.P. Ady Gil \[Sea Shepherd boat\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987 "2010-07-17T02:43:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/181 "2010-07-22T12:50:55Z")
Do you object to killing chickens, cows, or horses for food? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/182 "2010-07-22T13:04:40Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Do you object to killing chickens, cows, or horses for food? Yes and no and for different reasons. I do hold a “mild” objection to eating animals for purely economical reasons. It is a very ineffective way of producing food. You spend a lot more energy producing meat than you do producing food for the same amount of sustenance. Because of this and other factors, animal husbandry has a much stronger negative effect on the environment as well as contributing to climate change. It is very ineffective and I abhor inefficiency. I also think meat consumption in general has a negative effect on health, which is not just an individual problem since many of the costs of poor health are socialized. It is not so by necessity, you can consume meat in a healthy way and vegetarian food in unhealthy ways (malnutrition), but in general eating meat is less healthy. I have an moderate emotional objection to killing animals because I really like animals. This is not rationally defensible but emotions aren’t always rational. I have an extremely strong moral AND emotional objection to unnecessarily killing sentient, self-aware creatures. Which is directly correlated to the level of those traits. Whales and primates are as far as we know the most sentient non-human animals, so my objection is the strongest regarding them. I am somewhat hypocritical since I do eat meat, but my meat consumption is below average and will probably continue to drop. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/183 "2010-07-22T13:06:46Z")
Question for you: Why would you oppose hunting or farming humans for food? (I’m going to make the wild assumption that you do 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/184 "2010-07-22T13:42:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Whale meat isn’t that popular in Japan. It’s served in some school districts. It’s served in some high-end restaurants. If whaling were completely legal? I suspect it wouldn’t completely die out; I’ve never had it but I have it on good authority that as sashimi (raw fish - same as sushi but without the rice) it is quite good. So I expect there will always be some demand for it. 7 years living in Osaka and Wakayama, and whale sashimi has usually been available at my local neighborhood supermarket. I haven’t been in a while, by I used to see it at kaiten zushi places. I have to imagine that if there was no local demand for it that stores wouldn’t bother carrying it. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/185 "2010-07-22T14:13:04Z")
I was in Osaka for uni, and yes, it was usually available at the local supermarket. But then Osaka is the nearest big city to Wakayama, which used to be a major whaling community. I can’t recall ever seeing it at any of my local supermarkets in my 10 years in Tokyo. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/186 "2010-07-22T15:09:03Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Question for you: > Why would you oppose hunting or farming humans for food? (I’m going to make the wild assumption that you do 😉 ) Well, before we even get into the moral issues, murder is against the law in every country in the world. I haven’t given this much thought yet, but I suppose I’d say that I would be against killing any animal for food if that animal is advanced enough to develop laws that outlaw the killing of another member of the same species. I reserve the right to refine that if needed. So you think that animals are an ineffective way of producing food. Interesting. Did you know that meat is a much better source of protein than plants? Have you ever wondered why animals that only eat grass & plants have to spend their entire time grazing for food? I question your ‘sentient/self-aware’ criteria, since it seems rather…arbitrary. What are you basing this self-awareness on? How ‘self-aware’ does an animal need to be? Human babies are apparently not self-aware until they’re a year and a half old; should they be fair game until then? I have a strong (not just moderate) emotional objection to killing any animal just for the sake of killing it. I’m not a fan of hunting or catch-and-release fishing, for example. But animals as a source of food is a way of life. I don’t think there’s any doubt that compared to the current modern diet, loaded up with fats and un-necessary carbs etc, that most people would be healthier as vegetarians. But that doesn’t change the fact that humans are omnivores; we were built to eat meat. This is all beside the point though, because you’re a complete and utter hypocrite. Methinks you should STFU if you can’t even be bothered to practice what you preach – if you don’t even follow your own views, why in the hell should we? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/187 "2010-07-22T15:15:37Z")
Wow, that turned hostile in a hurry. I guess you were just feigning interest in a relevant discussion in order to finally get that off your chest. I don’t quite see the rationale behind you asking several questions of me, and finishing by calling me a “complete and utter hypocrite” and telling me to shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/188 "2010-07-22T15:21:02Z")
You make all these objections to eating meat, say you support SS politically and financially, think they are doing the moral thing (and showing restraint, no less) - then say that you eat meat? Sorry, any argument you want to make loses any possible weight if you can’t even be bothered to practice what you preach. Please tell us why we should ‘do as you say, not as you do’. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/189 "2010-07-22T15:28:00Z")
Basically you insult me, tell me to shut the fuck up and then ask me to defend a strawman, but finish by saying that you don’t care what I answer anyway. Is this your first interaction with another human being? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/190 "2010-07-22T15:41:07Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I have an extremely strong moral AND emotional objection to unnecessarily killing sentient, self-aware creatures. How much smarter is a whale than a cow? Do all whales have the same level of intelligence? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/191 "2010-07-22T15:42:06Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Basically you insult me, tell me to shut the fuck up and then ask me to defend a strawman, but finish by saying that you don’t care what I answer anyway. > > Is this your first interaction with another human being? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: To me, it looks like you have a completely irrational, hypocritical point of view. I will care about your answer if you can tell us why we should listen to someone that opposes something, but does it himself. You’re like the anti-gay crusaders that get caught with boy-toys on trips to Europe. The rest of us are trying to have a rational debate. If you are unable or unwilling to join in, then please be quiet and let the adults talk. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/192 "2010-07-22T15:52:27Z")
Ah so your name calling, demanding answers while telling me to shut the fuck up, and demanding that I defend strawmen is your attempt to have a rational debate. And to emphasize your desire for rational debate you decided to open with: > [@DragonAsh](#): > > you have a completely irrational, hypocritical point of view follow up with: > [@DragonAsh](#): > > You’re like the anti-gay crusaders that get caught with boy-toys on trips to Europe. (Are you comparing me to a raving bigot paedophile or a just a raving bigotted closet homosexual?) Then finish with: > [@DragonAsh](#): > > please be quiet and let the adults talk You must have a different definition of “rational debate” than I do. Not saying you’re wrong, just that it differs from mine. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/193 "2010-07-22T15:53:23Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > We agree completely on SS and Paul Watson. > > But please explain why whaling is immoral. Please show me TV shows of people ramming whaling boats from Norway and Iceland. Please show me people protesteing and setting fire to the ships owned by the Alaska communities. According to the SS wiki page thay have protested against all of those things and even protested aganst\* WHITE PEOPLE\*! Just because the TV show focues on the actions against the Japanese whalers does not mean that it is all the organization does. > [@Sea Shepherd wiki page](#): > > Sea Shepherd engages in conventional protests and direct actions to protect marine wildlife. Sea Shepherd operations have included interdiction against commercial fishing, shark poaching and finning, seal hunting, and whaling.[1][47] > The first direct action undertaken by Sea Shepherd was against Canadian seal hunting in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in March 1979.[48][49] The group often protests the annual seal hunt. > Also in 1979, the group made headlines when they rammed a whaling vessel for the first time.[50] Such acts continued with Sea Shepherd claiming responsibility for damaging or sinking multiple whaling vessels through sabotage or ramming. The group has attempted to intervene against Russian, Spanish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Makah, Faroese, and Japanese whalers in multiple campaigns around the globe.[1][6] > The group has been active in intervening against fishing and poaching in the South Pacific, the Mediterranean, and in waters around the Galapagos islands. It has partnered with governments in campaigns in the Galapagos. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/194 "2010-07-22T15:56:55Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > According to the SS wiki page thay have protested against all of those things and even protested aganst\* WHITE PEOPLE\*! Just because the TV show focues on the actions against the Japanese whalers does not mean that it is all the organization does. I’m aware of that, Death of Rats. But are there any examples of anti-whaling activities against any country other than Japan in the past 10 years? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/195 "2010-07-22T16:01:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m aware of that, Death of Rats. But are there any examples of anti-whaling activities against any country other than Japan in the past 10 years? Lots of things apparently (too many to list here…see [this wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society_operations)). One example: > [@](#): > > **Operation Blue Rage (2010)** > > Sea Shepherd transferred to the Mediterranean Sea to intervene against illegal Bluefin Tuna fishing in the area, primarily off the coast of Malta, in June 2010. Operation Blue Rage began in June 2010, after the lawful amount of Bluefin Tuna had been caught. The MV Steve Irwin and Sea Shepherd aircraft patrolled the area, and undercover operatives were placed within Malta and other areas in the Mediterranean to identify and document illegal fishing operations. On June 17, Sea Shepherd freed 800 Bluefin Tuna by cutting fishing nets they encountered, and engaged in a small skirmish with the Maltese fishing vessel that had laid them.[162] ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/196 "2010-07-22T16:14:58Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Short answer: no. > > Long answer: It depends on what you mean by whaling and how extreme conditions you allow for. If by whaling you mean hunting and extracting commercial products from whales, my answer is a categorical no. I see where you’re coming from, thanks. I just don’t see where we can go from here given that we have radically different ideas on how animals should be treated. I can only be described as being mildly pro-whaling in the sense that my indifference precludes me from objecting to the harvesting of whales for food or other products. I’d be against harvesting endangered whales. To you and a lot of people in the IWC it doesn’t matter whether the whales are endangered or not as you believe it is wrong, period. I just wish more anti-whaling people could be honest about that instead of bitching about the “illegal” Japanese whaling. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/197 "2010-07-22T16:18:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > To you and a lot of people in the IWC it doesn’t matter whether the whales are endangered or not as you believe it is wrong, period. I just wish more anti-whaling people could be honest about that instead of bitching about the “illegal” Japanese whaling. I don’t know about the IWC but I think most people opposed to whaling are clear they are opposed to whaling under any circumstances (at least short of survival). ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/198 "2010-07-22T16:27:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Lots of things apparently (too many to list here…see [this wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society_operations)). > > One example: That’s not about whaling. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/199 "2010-07-22T16:40:38Z")
**DragonAsh** please take a step back. Make your points without taking shots at each other by implying the other is a hypocrite, child, or otherwise deficient. **Stoneburg** , please don’t engage if you think you are being attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/200 "2010-07-22T16:49:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I see where you’re coming from, thanks. I just don’t see where we can go from here given that we have radically different ideas on how animals should be treated. It is unlikely that we will end up holding the same opinion, but I am interested in understanding how you think and how you’ve come to your conclusion. > [@Odesio](#): > > I’d be against harvesting endangered whales. To you and a lot of people in the IWC it doesn’t matter whether the whales are endangered or not as you believe it is wrong, period. Actually it does matter to me whether they are endangered, only just not to the extent that it would cause me to be pro-whaling. I’m _more_ against killing endangered species of whale than common species. > [@Odesio](#): > > I just wish more anti-whaling people could be honest about that instead of bitching about the “illegal” Japanese whaling. It would be presumptious of me to pretend to be speaking for others just because we’ve arrived at the same conlusion. Maybe they DO think that the legality issue is what matters (though I really doubt it). But I think it is more likely they they just believe that the legality argument is more effective. And maybe it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987.md?page=11)