# R.I.P. Ady Gil \[Sea Shepherd boat\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987 "2010-07-17T02:43:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/81 "2010-07-19T10:00:32Z")
Japan isn’t the only nation that hunts whales - and they don’t even kill the most whales each year: that stat belongs to Norway (over 700 whales a year). Japan is second (a bit under 600). Greenland is third at around 200 a year. Iceland kills a hundred or so whales a year. They used to use the same IWC provisions (‘scientific purposes’) until leaving the IWC in 1992. Oh, and the US is involved in whaling as well; some communities in Alaska kill several dozen a year. The SS guys apparently have attacked boats from a bunch of countries, but I find it very interesting to note that Whale Wars is only about Japanese whaling. I wonder why they don’t show the SS attacking US boats off the coast of Alaska. Shouldn’t you start at home if you’re trying to promote change? If anything, the SS idiots are having exactly the opposite effect from what they are trying to achieve. They’ve taken an extremely marginal issue in Japan that only a handful of people have any actual interest or stake in, and turned it into a rallying cry for hardliners that won’t accept anything that looks like Japan having to ‘back down to foreign pressure’. Ignoring completely the debate about how necessary a ban on whale hunting is: the SS idiots are self-promotion media whores more interested in seeing their names in print than in actually promoting any cause. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/82 "2010-07-19T10:07:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > While you’re at it why not include humans in your list? > > Meat is meat regardless of the source right? I have no idea what your actual point is. Do you eat human flesh? Is cannibalism legal where you live? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/83 "2010-07-19T12:55:35Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > It’s immoral like you eating pigs, cows, and chickens? Domestic pigs, cows and chickens are not endangered or threatened species. Most whales species are endangered, and those very few that are not endangered are threatened. Check out the [CITIES](http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml) list. Over-whaling is what has led to near extinction. That is why there is a moratorium on commercial whaling. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/84 "2010-07-19T12:56:31Z")
> [@Roadfood](#): > > I really don’t understand your point in that last sentence, it seems like a bizarre double standard. Prior to the actual collision, the Ady Gil had repeatedly violated maritime law by not only “directing its course toward another vessel”, but also doing so while dragging a device with the express purpose of doing harm to that other vessel. That they failed to inflict any harm speaks only to their ineptitude, not their intentions. I do not support vigilante actions, whether by eco-terrorists or by whalers. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/85 "2010-07-19T15:19:54Z")
I don’t know tons about whaling, but I’m pretty sure the vast majority of the whales Japan hunts are minkes - and population estimates range from 500,000 to over a million. Even assuming the low end of this range, Japan’s 900 or so kills a year is less than 0.002% of the entire population. And it’s debatable how endangered it is - it’s listed as ‘least concern’ on the IUCN Red List. I note the US is debating the ‘endangered’ status for humpbacks. Fins are harder to determine, but it doesn’t matter much in terms of Japan’s whaling - Japan has hardly hunted one a year since 1986. No one contradicts the basic notion that current hunting by the US, Norway, Japan, Iceland etc. is completely 100% legal. This ‘it’s immoral’ crap has too much of a cultural superiority smell to it that guarantees it will be ignored by the very people that should be listening. No matter how you slice it, the SS and IWC are doing a craptastically bad job of getting their message across. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/86 "2010-07-19T15:22:34Z")
> [@Roadfood](#): > > So: “I’m gong to try to wreck your ship! Oops, I missed. I’m going to try to wreck your ship again!. Oops, I missed again. Ok, I’m done for now, I’ll just hang out here. Hey, you’re attacking me back, no FAIR!” Generally speaking, and speaking only of U.S. laws, retaliatory actions are prohibited. If a person breaks into my house and I am in immediate fear of my life or grievous injury, I can shoot him. If he breaks in, goes nutso and destroys everyghing in my house, but I slip out the back; and if I see him on the street the an hour later hanging out and relaxing with a smoke and a beer, I am not allowed to shoot him. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/87 "2010-07-19T16:23:57Z")
Ok, for those people who don’t understand us greenies: Replace the ‘whales’ in this story with ‘children’. Imagine it. There you go. You now understand how some people, such as myself, feel about the issue. I’m not asking you to change your mind, just giving you a way of understanding the other sides passion. Now if you want to convince me that whales should be considered a commodity like any else, like say… bananas or cell phones, you are free to try. But while you’re making your argument, consider what the reception of it will be for someone who thinks whales=babies. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/88 "2010-07-19T16:45:31Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Generally speaking, and speaking only of U.S. laws, retaliatory actions are prohibited. If a person breaks into my house and I am in immediate fear of my life or grievous injury, I can shoot him. If he breaks in, goes nutso and destroys everyghing in my house, but I slip out the back; and if I see him on the street the an hour later hanging out and relaxing with a smoke and a beer, I am not allowed to shoot him. But was the ramming retalitory, or simply defensive? To carry forward with the homeowner analogy, what if someone drives through your neighbourhood and firebombs your neighbour’s house, causing it to burn to the ground. And then he does it to another neighbour’s house, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another – all burned to the ground. And then he comes to your house and starts lobbing firebombs at your house. There are no police for hundreds of miles, and the weather in your area is frequently deadly to people left exposed. Under those circumstances, it is reasonable and proportional for you to disable his car by ramming it with your car when he temporarily stalled out? Or to go back to the matter at hand, Bethune was hell bent on disabling, if not sinking, the whaler, despite it being in the remote and frequently ferocious Southern Ocean. Would you be defending yourself if you disabled his assault boat when it stopped long enough for you to ram it? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/89 "2010-07-19T16:46:10Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I have no idea what your actual point is. Do you eat human flesh? Is cannibalism legal where you live? Nope. Nor do I eat whale meat. Eating whales is also illegal where I live. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/90 "2010-07-19T16:49:22Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > But was the ramming retalitory, or simply defensive? > > To carry forward with the homeowner analogy, what if someone drives through your neighbourhood and firebombs your neighbour’s house, causing it to burn to the ground. And then he does it to another neighbour’s house, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another – all burned to the ground. And then he comes to your house and starts lobbing firebombs at your house. There are no police for hundreds of miles, and the weather in your area is frequently deadly to people left exposed. Under those circumstances, it is reasonable and proportional for you to disable his car by ramming it with your car when he temporarily stalled out? If it was ok for the whalers to ram and sink the Ady Gil then why even bother? If that is ok then snipers on board the whalers should be able to just pick-off the crew. If you do not think snipers are ok then how can you think ramming is ok? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/91 "2010-07-19T17:05:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If it was ok for the whalers to ram and sink the Ady Gil then why even bother? If that is ok then snipers on board the whalers should be able to just pick-off the crew. If you do not think snipers are ok then how can you think ramming is ok? I think there is a big difference between killing a crew verses disabling their boat so that they can not continue to attack. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/92 "2010-07-19T17:10:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you do not think snipers are ok then how can you think ramming is ok? I’d think the Japanese would be well within their rights to put their navy down there and blow the pirates down to Davey Jones locker if they make any sort of aggressive moves towards the ships they are protecting. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/93 "2010-07-19T17:20:30Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I think there is a big difference between killing a crew verses disabling their boat so that they can not continue to attack. Getting run over by a 500 ton ship in frigid (read deadly) water is mere disabling to you? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/94 "2010-07-19T17:21:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’d think the Japanese would be well within their rights to put their navy down there and blow the pirates down to Davey Jones locker if they make any sort of aggressive moves towards the ships they are protecting. And the Australian navy would be well within their rights to put their navy navy down there and blow the whalers down to Davey Jones locker if they make any sort of aggressive moves towards the whales in their sanctuary. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/95 "2010-07-19T17:35:02Z")
You guys calling the Sea Shepherds pirates are aware that the Japanese boats _actually are_ pirates, illegally invading a sanctuary to take whales? Are you aware that in analogous circumstances, US Coast Guard vessels have fired warning shots, and in one case, **rammed** , pirate fishing vessels in protected waters? Whether the Sea Sheprds’ actions constitute piracy is open to debate – the Japanese firing at whales in the sanctuary _actually constitutes piracy_ as the US has used the term in its own fishing disputes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/96 "2010-07-19T19:02:37Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If it was ok for the whalers to ram and sink the Ady Gil then why even bother? If that is ok then snipers on board the whalers should be able to just pick-off the crew. If you do not think snipers are ok then how can you think ramming is ok? The US government had no problem with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/97 "2010-07-19T19:35:56Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > You guys calling the Sea Shepherds pirates are aware that the Japanese boats _actually are_ pirates, illegally invading a sanctuary to take whales? Are you aware that in analogous circumstances, US Coast Guard vessels have fired warning shots, and in one case, **rammed** , pirate fishing vessels in protected waters? In this particular case, did you mean? If so, I would appreciate a cite. ETA: [This cite](http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2010/01/whale-wars-and-extraterritorial-jurisdiction.html) says the place where the incident occurred is part of the waters off Antarctica, which is not universally recognized as part of any nation’s waters. The Australians, I believe, claim it, but there is by no means unanimous agreement that such is the case. And in any case, poaching != piracy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/98 "2010-07-19T21:04:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nope. Nor do I eat whale meat. Eating whales is also illegal where I live. Eating whales is not illegal in Japan. Or Norway, Iceland etc. Should we ban your guns in the US because they are illegal in Japan? I need to check up on this, but I believe that the Marine Mammal Protection Act makes it illegal to hunt any whale in US waters, and it is illegal to buy or sell whale meat of any -illegally- harvested whales. However, there are exceptions: some communities in Alaska, which are allowed to legally hunt, kill, and eat whale. I suspect that if you bought some whale meat from one of the alaskan tribes and had it for dinner at restaurant in, say, California, the government would have a bit of a problem if you could prove where the whale meat came from. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/99 "2010-07-19T21:16:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And the Australian navy would be well within their rights to put their navy navy down there and blow the whalers down to Davey Jones locker if they make any sort of aggressive moves towards the whales in their sanctuary. Cite that the waters in question off the coast of Antarctica are internationally recognized as belonging to Australia? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/100 "2010-07-19T21:26:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Getting run over by a 500 ton ship in frigid (read deadly) water is mere disabling to you? The boat was disabled. One person had relatively minor injuries. There is a world of difference between that verses being shot to death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987.md?page=6)