# R.I.P. Ady Gil \[Sea Shepherd boat\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987 "2010-07-17T02:43:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/141 "2010-07-21T13:26:20Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > In order to give you and understanding of the emotional value of it I asked you to imagine whales being babies rather than commodities, because even if you’re not emotionally connected to whales you probably are to babies. I understand this feeling; I just think it is absurd. One _should not_ feel about whales as one does about human babies. Those who do feel this way, and are led by those feelings to excuse or condone the illegalities, piracies, and outright assholery displayed by the Sea Shepherd Shitheads are demonstrating why disproportionate emotional responses are often a bad idea. > [@](#): > > If you don’t want to know how I feel, I don’t want to know how you feel. If you want to know how I feel, I want to know how you feel. OK. I feel like this - [ul][li]Hunting the endangered species of whales is a bad thing, and ought to be eliminated.[/li][li]The behavior of the Sea Shepherds is very much counter-productive. Picking a fight and then whining when you lose it is a really stupid idea. [/li][li]The natural human tendency when presented with hypocritical behavior like that shown by the captain of the [del]Good Ship Lollipop[/del] _Ady Gill_ is to feel that his cause has been discredited. This is not logical, but it is a strong tendency nonetheless. Therefore something should be done about these pin-headed pirates, because they are making the anti-whaling movement look bad. [/li][li]If anything can be done, it will have to be done by the people who support the Sea Shepherds. I have never given them a dime (and never will), so my lack of support will do nothing to stop them from bringing discredit to their movement. That influence will have to be brought to bear by people like you.[/ul]If anything can be done to persuade you and others like you that the actions of these dolts makes others less sympathetic to anti-whaling in particular and green thinking in general, let me know. [/li] If it is based on an emotional response and not subject to rational argument, well, OK - then the next steps are to sink boats that behave like the _Ady Gill_, prosecute their captains and crew for piracy, and dismiss their hypocritical whines with a shrug. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/142 "2010-07-21T13:35:33Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > What we’re asking for is some sort of rational argument as to _why_ we should equate a marine mammal with a human baby. Flavour? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/143 "2010-07-21T13:39:04Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I also find it odd that Japan seems to get singled out by the SS nutjobs. It simply leaves them open to claims of blatent Euro-centric racism. Have a look at the Sea Shepherd’s history. They are quite international in scope, not just Japanese focused. [Sea Shepherd Conservation Society operations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society_operations) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/144 "2010-07-21T13:41:41Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I am not arguing that whales are the same as babies. I am trying to help people understand how environmentalists (like myself) _feel_ about it. I am an environmentalist. I do not feel the way you feel about whales. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/145 "2010-07-21T14:14:30Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Have a look at the Sea Shepherd’s history. They are quite international in scope, not just Japanese focused. [Sea Shepherd Conservation Society operations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society_operations) For example, for over thirty years Watson has been using direct action concerning sealing in his own country of Canada. Fishing? Japan, Mexico, Costa Rica, Ecquador, Malta. Whaling? Spain, Portugal, USSR, Norway, Faroes, Iceland, Makah/USA, Japan (whales and dolpins). ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/146 "2010-07-21T15:36:30Z")
**Muffin** : While I know that SS is international in scope, and does handle stuff besides whaling, I think the your whaling list is a bit misleading. Look at the wiki link and the outline of their anti-whaling protests: Spain: 1979-1980 Soviet Union: 1981-82 Norway: 1992, 1994 Faroes: 1986, 2000 Iceland: 1986 Makah/US: 1998 Japan: 2003 to present In other words: In the last 10 years Japan is the only nation that has been the subject of their anti-whaling protests, and it’s been ongoing since 2003; every other country has been in SS’ targets only for a year or two. Second, I would say that the biggest source of publicity for the group is Whale Wars - which is soley focused on whaling activities of Japan, and no other country. If they’re serious about stopping _whaling_, and if they want to stop claims of Euro-centric racism, they should be targeting other countries such as Norway and Iceland. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/147 "2010-07-21T16:36:57Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > **Muffin** : While I know that SS is international in scope, and does handle stuff besides whaling, I think the your whaling list is a bit misleading. Look at the wiki link and the outline of their anti-whaling protests: > > Spain: 1979-1980 > Soviet Union: 1981-82 > Norway: 1992, 1994 > Faroes: 1986, 2000 > Iceland: 1986 > Makah/US: 1998 > Japan: 2003 to present > > In other words: In the last 10 years Japan is the only nation that has been the subject of their anti-whaling protests, and it’s been ongoing since 2003; every other country has been in SS’ targets only for a year or two. > > Second, I would say that the biggest source of publicity for the group is Whale Wars - which is soley focused on whaling activities of Japan, and no other country. > > If they’re serious about stopping _whaling_, and if they want to stop claims of Euro-centric racism, they should be targeting other countries such as Norway and Iceland. They could also protest the US and Canada which allows whaling by 1st nation/aboriginal people. Maybe it doesn’t count if it’s not a big evil corporate ship. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/148 "2010-07-21T16:47:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They could also protest the US and Canada which allows whaling by 1st nation/aboriginal people. Maybe it doesn’t count if it’s not a big evil corporate ship. Maybe it is because for the aboriginal people it is a matter of subsistence living and whaling is a crucial part of their survival. Apparently the Japanese don’t even really like whale meat yet they persist in their hunting. Without government support likely the whalers would largely go out of business in Japan. > [@](#): > > The Wakayama education board is supplying whale meat to around 280 schools, to try to promote awareness of the region’s whaling traditions. > > \ > > To make the dish more appetising, the whale is being fried in breadcrumbs, or minced into burgers. > > The board had to lobby the government to bring down the price to keep it within their budget. > > \ > > For all of Japan’s success in winning support from other countries for its campaign to ease the restrictions on whaling - especially smaller countries which receive Japanese aid - the Japanese people are losing interest. > > Whale meat is only served in a few specialist restaurants, and occasionally appears on supermarket shelves. Younger people almost never eat it. > > SOURCE: [BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Japan pushes whale meat revival](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4106688.stm) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/149 "2010-07-21T17:06:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Apparently the Japanese don’t even really like whale meat yet they persist in their hunting. Without government support likely the whalers would largely go out of business in Japan. And this matters…why? Secondly - perhaps it’d be cheaper to hunt and be a more viable business if whalers didn’t have to, you know, defend themselves from pirate ships? Look, I agree 100% that the vast, vast majority of young people almost never have whale meat. It is still found in school lunches in some districts. But the SS and other eco-terrorists have succeeded in taking a minor, marginal issue in Japan and turning it into a rallying cry for hardliners in the country that will not let the government do anything that makes it look like they’re ‘backing down’ to foreigners’ demands. Especially when it looks very much like Japan is being singled out. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/150 "2010-07-21T17:10:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe it is because for the aboriginal people it is a matter of subsistence living and whaling is a crucial part of their survival. The Makah Indians in the United States aren’t whaling in order to sustain a subsistence living. They aren’t even whaling via traditional methods as they use .50 caliber and other large rifles during the course of their hunt. Yes, there was plenty of protest when the Makah started whaling again in 1999. I’m sure they don’t quite draw the attention of the Sea Shepherds because of the low volume of whales the Makah kill. > [@](#): > > Apparently the Japanese don’t even really like whale meat yet they persist in their hunting. Without government support likely the whalers would largely go out of business in Japan. By all means then. Put the govt. in a position where backing down from foreigners would only make them lose face. That should work. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/151 "2010-07-21T17:28:46Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The Makah Indians in the United States aren’t whaling in order to sustain a subsistence living. They aren’t even whaling via traditional methods as they use .50 caliber and other large rifles during the course of their hunt. Yes, there was plenty of protest when the Makah started whaling again in 1999. I’m sure they don’t quite draw the attention of the Sea Shepherds because of the low volume of whales the Makah kill. If not subsistence it is close according to them: > [@](#): > > 1. How many whales will the Makahs take? > > We are legally permitted to take up to five whales per year, but the Makah gray whale management plan limits the number of landed whales over a five year period to 20—or an average of four per year. The management plan permits whaling only if there is an unmet traditional subsistence or cultural need for the whale in the community. So it is possible that as little as one whale per year will suffice. > > SOURCE: [http://ncseonline.org/nae/docs/makahfaq.html](http://ncseonline.org/nae/docs/makahfaq.html) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/152 "2010-07-21T17:40:57Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And this matters…why? You’re into killing an animal just to kill it? What market exists in Japan is largely a market manufactured by the government by feeding it to unsuspecting children at school. The children apparently wouldn’t eat it otherwise and the government needs to subsidize it so the schools can afford to serve it. Stores apparently rarely stock the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/153 "2010-07-21T17:49:33Z")
What animal would be killed to feed these children otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/154 "2010-07-21T17:54:21Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > What animal would be killed to feed these children otherwise? Something they like to eat and that will be used almost completely for something or other (99% or better of a cow is used in something…almost nothing goes to waste). Why hunt an animal (in an unusually violent way no less) when almost no one wants to eat it or needs other products derived from it? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/155 "2010-07-21T18:25:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why hunt an animal (in an unusually violent way no less) when almost no one wants to eat it or needs other products derived from it? Why indeed? Why doesn’t the SS use this argument with the Japanese themselves and use the money they collect to get this message across rather than doing the pirate routine? I’d even think of giving them money if they did. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/156 "2010-07-21T18:59:45Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > We understand fully well that you equate whales with babies. > > What we’re asking for is some sort of rational argument as to _why_ we should equate a marine mammal with a human baby. > > I neither need nor desire to successfully communicate or debate with someone who is holding a completely irrational point of view. Your job is to convince us that your view is rational. You obviously do not understand, you’re only trying to make it easier for yourself to not understand. That’s fine. I do not have a job here, I tried to provide you with a perspective to help you see the other sides point. I was doing this in good faith. I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything, or explain anything. I fully support the Sea Shepherds, politically and financially. I think it is as immoral to hunt whales as it is to hunt primates. I think it is moral and brave to do what the Sea Shepherds do. In fact, I think they’re showing restraint. I also think that you are part of the problem and that there is no way that I or anyone like me will ever be able to convince you. I’m on one side of the spectrum, you’re on the other. It was obviously a mistake to think that there could grow any sort of understanding from anything that I say. Maybe your misunderstanding isn’t intentional, it doesn’t matter, since you’re not interested in discussing in good faith, neither am I. ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/157 "2010-07-21T19:17:51Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > You obviously do not understand, you’re only trying to make it easier for yourself to not understand. That’s fine. > > I do not have a job here, I tried to provide you with a perspective to help you see the other sides point. I was doing this in good faith. I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything, or explain anything. > > I fully support the Sea Shepherds, politically and financially. I think it is as immoral to hunt whales as it is to hunt primates. I think it is moral and brave to do what the Sea Shepherds do. In fact, I think they’re showing restraint. > > I also think that you are part of the problem and that there is no way that I or anyone like me will ever be able to convince you. I’m on one side of the spectrum, you’re on the other. It was obviously a mistake to think that there could grow any sort of understanding from anything that I say. Maybe your misunderstanding isn’t intentional, it doesn’t matter, since you’re not interested in discussing in good faith, neither am I. Would you mind explaining how you would envision a good faith discussion going? Not trying to be snarky here, just not sure where else the conversation could have gone other than to ask why you equate whales and babies. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/158 "2010-07-21T19:22:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If not subsistence it is close according to them: The Makah are whaling entirely for “cultural” reasons. They got along just fine for decades without hunting whales. The only difference between the Makah and the Japanese are the number of whales taken. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/159 "2010-07-21T19:31:22Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The only difference between the Makah and the Japanese are the number of whales taken. Because protesting the Japanese is more politically correct than protesting poor natives (even if the natives use power boats and the latest technology to kill whales, too). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987/160 "2010-07-21T19:47:34Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Because protesting the Japanese is more politically correct than protesting poor natives (even if the natives use power boats and the latest technology to kill whales, too). Ah, so the Makah take 4 (or less) whales per year. The Japanese have a quota of around 1,000. Yep, I can see why the SS would more profitably spend their time chasing the Makah. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-ady-gil-sea-shepherd-boat/546987.md?page=9)