Which one is cheaper to get to?
Considering the SS ships are based in (IIRC) New Zealand I am guessing it is a lot cheaper to get at the Japanese.
They are probably based there because it is close to the Japanese.
Absolutely.
Obviously using the word ‘babies’ was a mistake in hindsight. I was hoping to easily communicate the extreme moral and emotional outrage that I and other extremists such as myself feel over this issue. It seemed to me that one of the main obstacles to communication was that people did not have an understanding of that.
I tried to find something that people who don’t feel the way I do about whales would feel something simmilar to. Something people feel is precious and in dire need of protection. Something people would be very upset if it was violated. Babies (almost) universally fit those criterias.
If I knew you were a passionate art lover I might have used the analogy of art instead. Saying that in order to understand how I feel you need to imagine people running rampant through museeums setting fire to your favorite masterpieces. But I have no information on what these people love, so I picked the most universal comparison I could think of at the time.
My main problem, I think, is that I underestimate the extent to which people are entrenched. I assume that people are constantly trying to understand other peoples point of view because that is how I am wired. But in reality people here are usually locked in a constant mode of attack/defend. It is very understandable, but I would desperately like it not to be that way. So I underestimate the power of that culture and, perhaps stupidly, try to counter it by discussing in good faith. Hoping that others will catch on. But I’ve done a really shitty job of it so far.
Right now I’ve been trying to figure out if there is a better way of doing it or if I should give up. There is a debate ongoing that has shown some real potential, which makes me hopeful, but I am not convinced that my aim isn’t unrealistic. The reason I’m still trying is that in my view this is the place with the biggest potential, because the sum of intellectual capacity here is staggering, but the win/lose or attack/defend culture is very powerful, here as everywhere else.
Seems to me the debate actually lies elsewhere. You (or I or others) need to explain why whales are worthy of protection and chickens or tuna aren’t.
It is an uphill battle. Many people see the world as humans and everything else. Everything not human can be exploited by humans. As such there is no difference in their eyes between killing a chicken and killing a whale. Changing that mindset delves into philosophy and not sure it can be pulled off on a message board.
Personally I do not see humans as apart from the animal world. Human exceptionalism if you will. Rather I see humans as a part of the animal kingdom. The animal kingdom is a continuum with bacteria at one end and humans at the other. As such:
- I do not have issue with killing bacteria (I wash for instance).
- No particular issue with squishing a mosquito.
- Ok with killing a chicken for food, not ok with killing it just to kill it.
- Not ok with killing whales unless you live in an area that they are necessary to your survival.
- Not ok with killing humans at all (short of self defense).
That’s the quick version anyway for me.
I agree completely with what you’re saying. My point is that reaching an understanding or even just having any sort of fruitful communication requires certain prerequisites. My view of that “meta debate” is what I am trying to communicate, in a roundabout way, in my previous post.
Why do you draw lines between killing mosquitos, chickens, and whales?
Degree of sentience.
In related news, the whales are fighting back: Spot the endangered species: yacht trip turns into a modern-day Moby Dick as southern right whale lands on deck with couple | Daily Mail Online
Good question.
Why not add humans to the end of that list?
In accomplishing the above goal you were quite successful. The problem is that there is absolutely no way to find any compromise with “extremist” who are outraged by the killing of whales in a way that the majority of people would be about the killing of babies. As an example, would you be able to accept any amount of whale harvesting done by the Japanese as okay? Given how strongly you feel I don’t think you can answer yes. If you do, well, you don’t really feel as strongly about it as the analogy you used.
No, your main problem is that you’re buying into the myth that communication can resolve all differences. Sadly this a myth. We’re not having any trouble understanding where you’re coming from. Some of us just disagree with it vehemently.
Odesio
The Japanese don’t like whale meat. really. I just read it on the internet so it must be true. :dubious:
False. I do not buy into that, and even if I did it wouldn’t be my main problem.
False. Your previous post is my cite.
Repeating stuff doesn’t make it more true or more interesting. I’m going to look for indication that you’ve caught up with the debate before re-engaging.
It looks like we’re just talking past one another. I am engaging in this discussion in good faith. I am curious to know the answer to the question I asked. Are there any conditions under which you believe whaling to be acceptable in the modern era?
Well, unlike probably everyone else in this thread, I’ve spent over a quarter of a century living and working in Japan, including graduating from a Japanese university. My Japanese listening, reading, and writing skills are easily on par with my English skills.
Whale meat isn’t that popular in Japan. It’s served in some school districts. It’s served in some high-end restaurants. If whaling were completely legal? I suspect it wouldn’t completely die out; I’ve never had it but I have it on good authority that as sashimi (raw fish - same as sushi but without the rice) it is quite good. So I expect there will always be some demand for it.
But in terms of Joe Blow Public at large? Japanese citizens aren’t up in arms about anyone taking away their whale meat. What they *do *care about is the impression that they’re being singled out, that foreigners are trying to bully them around. The SS and other anti-whaling activists have made this a Japanese whaling problem, not a whaling problem, and I think this is by far and away their biggest mistake.
As I repeated before: they’ve managed to take a marginal issue that no one in Japan would care all that much about, and turned it into the perfect rallying cry for hardliners. I would wager good money that they will never stop Japan (or any other country) from whaling with their current tactics.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: It depends on what you mean by whaling and how extreme conditions you allow for. If by whaling you mean hunting and extracting commercial products from whales, my answer is a categorical no.
If you mean is there any circumstances other than immediate survival reasons (the unlikely self defense or starvation) where I would think it is acceptable to kill a whale, maybe. You could probably come up with some extreme scenario where I would accept it.
So how much whale hunting do you think is for commercial products? Do you think countries are killing whales to make whale oil lamps?
What about whales that are killed for food. You know, like cows or chickens.
I used the definition I found on the web. If you want to argue that food is not a commercial product that’s OK. In that case I will adjust my statement to:
Is your objection to whaling because you believe whales are endangered? Would your stance change if whaling was limited to species not endangered?
My objection is not based on whales being endangered, but it does influence the urgency and emotional component of my view. My objection stems from sentience/self-awareness, same as Muffin.
I would not object to killing an animal (including humans) that is not sentient/self-aware. For example someone who has no brain activity, or a zygote.