# R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/1 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")
SOOOO much so THIS: > **[Murders In Charleston Reignite Efforts To Abolish Symbols Of Confederacy...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/after-charleston-a-battle-against-the-confederacy-is-waged)** > > As South Carolina inches toward taking down the Confederate battle flag from state Capitol grounds, a push is underway across the United States to remove symbols of the Confederacy. Let’s cut through decades after decades of Southern “revisionist” history: 1. Cutting through the “economic and social reasons” and “States rights” crap, the bottom line is the Civil War was about the South wanting to keep slavery, and the North stopping them. North=Good . . . South=Evil 2. With the exceptions of troops that were illegally conscripted by the Confederacy, the Confederate government, its generals, leadership, and volunteers were all traitors to the United States government, and it was through the grace of God and mercy of the North most of them weren’t executed or imprisoned. I’m actually disgusted Lincoln didn’t put most of the leadership on trial. Im guessing it was in a treaty somewhere. 3. There was no “Northern aggression”. The South fired first, at Fort Sumter, in an ultimate act of terrorism. The South started it: North fucking finished it. The Confederate flag not only is a symbol of racism and slavery, but also treachery against the United States. Its also the flag of a conquered, defeated loser force. Since when does the loser get to fly their flag? You are in the United States. Fly the United States flag. It does my heart good to see this hateful symbol being torn down. I also call for all statues and monuments to Southern civil war military figures to be torn down and sent to a landfill as soon as possible. Enough of the glorification and excuse-making for a truly evil empire that thankfully, thanks to the courage and ingenuity of the North, we were able to stomp out like the anti-American pestilence it was. FUCK the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/2 "2015-06-23T06:11:44Z")
Cutting through the rights crap and revisionism, the US government, generals and volunteers were just traitors to their rightful king, the king of England. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/3 "2015-06-23T06:22:49Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Cutting through the rights crap and revisionism, the US government, generals and volunteers were just traitors to their rightful king, the king of England. But they didn’t deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/4 "2015-06-23T06:29:01Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > With the exceptions of troops that were illegally conscripted by the Confederacy, the Confederate government, its generals, leadership, and volunteers were all traitors to the United States government, and it was through the grace of God and mercy of the North most of them weren’t executed or imprisoned. I’m actually disgusted Lincoln didn’t put most of the leadership on trial. Im guessing it was in a treaty somewhere. This I disagree with. Once you’ve won a war, it’s generally better to be magnanimous in victory and seek to reconcile the defeated people rather than punish them. I would say that in this particular case, however, the federal government shouldn’t have sacrificed the interests of its black citizens to the cause of reconciliation. The government should have worked on bringing both black southerners from slavery and white southerners from rebellion into the political mainstream. It would have been a lot more difficult in the short run but it would have made a better and more just peace in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/5 "2015-06-23T07:53:02Z")
The US government was magnanimous, but the Carpetbaggers weren’t. They made a point of rubbing the old “Gentry”'s nose in it. It is a continuing debate as to how Reconstruction would have played out had Lincoln survived and his successor continued his idea of “welcome them back”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/6 "2015-06-23T08:19:26Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > The US government was magnanimous, but the Carpetbaggers weren’t. > > They made a point of rubbing the old “Gentry”'s nose in it. I don’t think the “carpetbaggers” were as bad as was later claimed. I think they got thrown into the historical revision pile with the “Lost Cause”. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/7 "2015-06-23T08:54:25Z")
Check out the comments on this wapost article > **[Five myths about why the South seceded](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html)** > > One hundred fifty years after the Civil War began, we’re still fighting over its meaning. The self deception and revisionism is alive and well in the conservative south. The war of northern aggression, a refusal to own their own naked bigotry of their sacred ancestors, a refusal to judge slavery as wrong. They are so delicate when they speak of it, whether slavery was right or wrong that’s beside the point, it was merely one factor that lead to succession due to the NORTHERN aggression. It’s enough to make ones head explode. I want these fools dragged through the mud, and the people giving cover to them shamed in public. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/8 "2015-06-23T10:21:31Z")
LOL. It took me until now to know Lincoln wasn’t on the ballot in 10 Southern states. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/9 "2015-06-23T10:35:09Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > SOOOO much so THIS: > > [http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/after-charleston-a-battle-against-the-confederacy-is-waged#.pa1VDvBLA](http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/after-charleston-a-battle-against-the-confederacy-is-waged#.pa1VDvBLA) > > Let’s cut through decades after decades of Southern “revisionist” history: > > 1. Cutting through the “economic and social reasons” and “States rights” crap, the bottom line is the Civil War was about the South wanting to keep slavery, and the North stopping them. North=Good . . . South=Evil > > 2. With the exceptions of troops that were illegally conscripted by the Confederacy, the Confederate government, its generals, leadership, and volunteers were all traitors to the United States government, and it was through the grace of God and mercy of the North most of them weren’t executed or imprisoned. I’m actually disgusted Lincoln didn’t put most of the leadership on trial. Im guessing it was in a treaty somewhere. > > 3. There was no “Northern aggression”. The South fired first, at Fort Sumter, in an ultimate act of terrorism. The South started it: North fucking finished it. > > The Confederate flag not only is a symbol of racism and slavery, but also treachery against the United States. Its also the flag of a conquered, defeated loser force. Since when does the loser get to fly their flag? You are in the United States. Fly the United States flag. > > It does my heart good to see this hateful symbol being torn down. I also call for all statues and monuments to Southern civil war military figures to be torn down and sent to a landfill as soon as possible. Enough of the glorification and excuse-making for a truly evil empire that thankfully, thanks to the courage and ingenuity of the North, we were able to stomp out like the anti-American pestilence it was. > > FUCK the Confederacy. > [@Salvor](#): > > Check out the comments on this wapost article > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html) > The self deception and revisionism is alive and well in the conservative south. The war of northern aggression, a refusal to own their own naked bigotry of their sacred ancestors, a refusal to judge slavery as wrong. They are so delicate when they speak of it, whether slavery was right or wrong that’s beside the point, it was merely one factor that lead to succession due to the NORTHERN aggression. > It’s enough to make ones head explode. I want these fools dragged through the mud, and the people giving cover to them shamed in public. Well, at least you’re not bitter about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/10 "2015-06-23T11:11:18Z")
“Let 'em up easy,” Lincoln told Grant and Sherman. He knew that to become a family again, we had to stop hurting each other. > [@](#): > > With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. It bears repeating that the Confederate battle flag semiotics were added to the Georgia state flag at the dawn of the civil rights era (1956) specifically to symbolize resistance to the civil rights movement…it had not been part of Georgia’s flag before that. Not heritage, but hate. I’m conflicted about statues–I lean toward keeping battlefield monuments, but statehouse lawn statues not so much. And the flags can come down. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/11 "2015-06-23T11:12:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This I disagree with. Once you’ve won a war, it’s generally better to be magnanimous in victory and seek to reconcile the defeated people rather than punish them. That’s fine, but you really shouldn’t let the losers write the history books for decades afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/12 "2015-06-23T11:13:56Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > The US government was magnanimous, but the Carpetbaggers weren’t. > . Carpetbagging was encouraged by the South who wanted more people (white people, really) to rebuild. Then they decided that carpetbagging was a bad thing in their deluded revisionist history. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/13 "2015-06-23T12:42:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This I disagree with. Once you’ve won a war, it’s generally better to be magnanimous in victory and seek to reconcile the defeated people rather than punish them. > > I would say that in this particular case, however, the federal government shouldn’t have sacrificed the interests of its black citizens to the cause of reconciliation. The government should have worked on bringing both black southerners from slavery and white southerners from rebellion into the political mainstream. It would have been a lot more difficult in the short run but it would have made a better and more just peace in the long run. There was Reconstruction. Which was ended prematurely as part of a deal to select a President after a dicey election in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/14 "2015-06-23T12:57:11Z")
Lincoln mobilized troops to march on the South. Who fired first is immaterial to that fact. As far as the OP, people just want something to complain about. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/15 "2015-06-23T12:57:48Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > 1. Cutting through the “economic and social reasons” and “States rights” crap, the bottom line is the Civil War was about the South wanting to keep slavery, and the North stopping them To finish your sentence accurately, that should read “the North stopping them…from breaking up the Union (and stealing stuff on the way out the door).” Ending slavery in the South was much less a motivating factor, especially for the average soldier. It’s long past time for the Confederate flag to be relegated to museums and private collections. Interesting though that a substantial minority of blacks in recent polling were against removing it from display on public property. > [@Omg a Black Conservative](#): > > Lincoln mobilized troops to march on the South. Who fired first is immaterial to that fact. Well, sure. Why opening fire on and capturing a U.S. fort and seizing federal arsenals should be seen as justification for fighting back is something I’ll never understand. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/16 "2015-06-23T12:58:39Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Well, at least you’re not bitter about it. If there’s anything in the world to be bitter about, it’s this. White supremacy has fucked over people in the South for centuries, and there are still revisionists claiming it never happened, it wasn’t really that bad, they’re not honoring it, and we shouldn’t do anything to change it. The best part is, people take their incoherent gibberish seriously. Bet your ass I’m bitter. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/17 "2015-06-23T13:00:53Z")
Then there’s the nutty fact that 10 US Army posts are named after Confederate generals: [ul] [li]Fort AP Hill, VA - Confederate General Amborse Powell (AP) Hill[/li][li]Camp Beauregard LA - Confederate General P. G. T. Beauregard[/li][li]Fort Benning, GA – Confederate Brigadier General Henry L. Benning[/li][li]Fort Bragg, NC – Confederate General Braxton Bragg[/li][li]Fort Gordon, GA - Confederate Lieutenant General John Brown Gordon[/li][li]Fort Hood, TX - Confederate General John Bell Hood[/li][li]Fort Lee, VA – Confederate General Robert E. Lee[/li][li]Fort Picket VA - Confederate General George E. Pickett[/li][li]Fort Polk, LA - Confederate General Reverend Leonidas Polk[/li][li]Fort Rucker, AL – Confederate Colonel Edmund W. Rucker[/li][li]Fort Stewart, GA – Confederate Brigadier General Daniel Stewart[/li][li]Camp Van Dorn MS – Confederate General Earl Van Dorn[/li][/ul] I think in hindsight it was exceptionally wise, if not ideal, to reunite Southern military mythology with the US military establishment. Better to rehabilitate the leadership and keep the holdouts marginalized. (Doubters - see the destruction of the Iraqi Army and Baath Party). There is also a fine line to be drawn on censorship of symbols. Yes, they do have power and influence, but repressing them can imbue them with even more power and influence. It’s reasonable to see that any state government flying the Confederate flag is flirting with open rebellion even in this late age, and the US would be justified in removing said flag (with military force if necessary). This would be about as effective as killing al-Qaeda’s #2 leader yet again - even more would pop up. So the reality is that we live in a divided country, and if a civil war wasn’t enough to secure a decisive ideological victory, then it is wise to tread lightly when addressing these divisions. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/18 "2015-06-23T13:01:14Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Lincoln mobilized troops to march on the South. Who fired first is immaterial to that fact. > > As far as the OP, people just want something to complain about. Lincoln saved the Union. As a side benefit, Slavery ended. Might some people have been upset by a recent story in the news? Nope they “just want something to complaint about.” (You\* do\* know that many of us doubt the veracity of your user name.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/19 "2015-06-23T13:08:18Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Lincoln mobilized troops to march on the South. Who fired first is immaterial to that fact. > > As far as the OP, people just want something to complain about. Mobilizing troops is the prudent thing to do when faced with an imminent armed insurrection. The South was unquestionably in the wrong and no amount of revisionism on the part of southerners can change that. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/20 "2015-06-23T13:16:17Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Lincoln saved the Union. As a side benefit, Slavery ended. That’s great and all, but it doesn’t change the fact that the North was mobilizing troops before the South fired a shot (Lincoln had already declared that no State would be allowed to secede. To deny that much is to argue against history. > [@](#): > > Might some people have been upset by a recent story in the news? Nope they “just want something to complaint about.” Yeah, and that has about as much to do with the Confederate flag as the color of his shoes. If you refuse to see this for what it is, then you’re simply ignoring the obvious. > [@](#): > > (You\* do\* know that many of us doubt the veracity of your user name.) That sounds like a personal problem to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=2)