# R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/201 "2015-06-28T16:36:22Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > and want to kill every last wolf on the planet. :eek: What’s wrong with wolves? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/202 "2015-06-28T17:11:21Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I’ve looked around my community and pretty much everyone flying that flag are total gun-nuts, believe marriage is “one man, one woman”, hate Obamacare and want to kill every last wolf on the planet. So they are wrong across the board. Flying a racist symbol makes them 5 for 5. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/203 "2015-06-28T17:17:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > :eek: What’s wrong with wolves? Back in 308 AD along the Aquatania coast, a lone wolf was passing gas and some silly human thought the wolf was looking at a child with hunger in his eyes. Ever since, humans have believed that wolves are man-eaters and they’ve been slaughtered off at every opportunity. Yet another foolish reason humans come up with to hate. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/204 "2015-06-28T17:53:22Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > That was then, this is now. > > Of course there’s still the racist connotation, but I think the Battle Flag has gained more of a “rebellious” symbolism, specifically conservative beliefs in a tsunami of liberalism. I’ve looked around my community and pretty much everyone flying that flag are total gun-nuts, believe marriage is “one man, one woman”, hate Obamacare and want to kill every last wolf on the planet. “Southern Pride” doesn’t enter the equation here in The West very much. That argument might wash if it weren’t for all the freaking monuments glorifying the very people who made that damn flag. That’s now. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/205 "2015-06-28T18:43:17Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Of course there’s still the racist connotation, but I think the Battle Flag has gained more of a “rebellious” symbolism, specifically conservative beliefs in a tsunami of liberalism. Yep, because the 6 predominantly black churches which burned in the past little while has nothing to do with race, they burned in North Carolina, Georgia, South Carolina, Florida, Ohio, and Tennessee because of “rebellious” symbolism. It may not be overt but “Southern Pride” is just another term for conservative bigotry. Some may not consciously make the connection but it is there. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/206 "2015-06-28T19:15:23Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Of course there’s still the racist connotation, but I think the Battle Flag has gained more of a “rebellious” symbolism, specifically conservative beliefs in a tsunami of liberalism. I’ve looked around my community and pretty much everyone flying that flag are total gun-nuts, believe marriage is “one man, one woman”, hate Obamacare and want to kill every last wolf on the planet. “Southern Pride” doesn’t enter the equation here in The West very much. Well they should switch to the [Gadsden flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag) then (aka “Don’t tread on me”), like many of their conservative peers. That at least has the advantage of actually irritating liberals like myself (it isn’t a bad flag after all) as opposed to inspiring reactions ranging from amusement to a roll of the eyes. America needs quality trolls if we are to keep up with the foreign competition. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/207 "2015-06-28T19:22:26Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well they should switch to the [Gadsden flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag) then (aka “Don’t tread on me”), like many of their conservative peers. That at least has the advantage of actually irritating liberals like myself (it isn’t a bad flag after all) as opposed to inspiring reactions ranging from amusement to a roll of the eyes. > > America needs quality trolls if we are to keep up with the foreign competition. They have an issue with the “Gadsden flag”, The same faction that makes up the the body of “Conservatives” were also typically British Loyalists. [http://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/Parrington/vol1/contents.html](http://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/Parrington/vol1/contents.html) I know that is why it irritates me when conservatives do, and I think that was the gist behind your post. but I am sure conservatives get annoyed when that is pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/208 "2015-06-28T19:32:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That argument might wash if it weren’t for all the freaking monuments glorifying the very people who made that damn flag. That’s now. Robert E. Lee is considered one of the finest military leaders in American history. So deeply respected by his peers that General Grant refused Lee’s surrender until he went back and strapped on his sword. By that logic, then we should strike Hannibal’s name from all the history books and never teach his strategies at West Point. Should we tear down all the monument to American Indian Nations who fought us, rip apart their customs and beliefs, give their reservation lands to ADM, prohibit them speaking their languages … c’mon, they killed American soldiers … > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yep, because the 6 predominantly black churches which burned in the past little while has nothing to do with race, they burned in North Carolina, Georgia, South Carolina, Florida, Ohio, and Tennessee because of “rebellious” symbolism. Maybe that’s the reasons other community’s neighbors flag the Confederate Battle Flag, my neighbors wouldn’t burn down a church … that’s a felony … they’d have to surrender their guns … and their guns are more important to them than some stupid flag, Confederate or United States. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It may not be overt but “Southern Pride” is just another term for conservative bigotry. Some may not consciously make the connection but it is there. I find it hard to believe anyone could **not** that connection … but then again the limits on the intelligence of the typical conservative bigot defies belief. * * * Free speech protections aren’t in place to protect inoffensive speech … just saying … ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/209 "2015-06-28T19:42:51Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Robert E. Lee is considered one of the finest military leaders in American history. So deeply respected by his peers that General Grant refused Lee’s surrender until he went back and strapped on his sword. By that logic, then we should strike Hannibal’s name from all the history books and never teach his strategies at West Point. > > Should we tear down all the monument to American Indian Nations who fought us, rip apart their customs and beliefs, give their reservation lands to ADM, prohibit them speaking their languages … c’mon, they killed American soldiers … Yes, but the reality is that a lot of that took place in the context of us breaking many deals and treaties made before with the Indians. As it is clear to me the south did broke the law, and in the time of civil right legislation the bigots pushed to get more symbols of the confederacy in government buildings and places. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > Free speech protections aren’t in place to protect inoffensive speech … just saying … That is nice, but what is going on is that governments should not be funding the maintenance or the display of those symbols of hate. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/210 "2015-06-28T20:15:15Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Free speech protections aren’t in place to protect inoffensive speech … just saying … Which is why I fully support an **individuals** right to display that rag as much as they want. But there should be _zero_ governmental support of it at _any_ level. Let it be a sign to everyone that the displayer is an asshole and to be outcast from Civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/211 "2015-06-28T20:36:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t think Stone Mountain should be destroyed. I’d think it advisable for the State of Georgia to release all interest in the park, however. My understanding is that Georgia has essentially chartered a non-profit to take care of the park, so my suggestion would be to simply eliminate the charter and allow the association (or whatever it is) to simply maintain the area as private property. Thousands of people visit that park every day. Many people climb the mountain for their daily exercise, taking advantage of free access from Stone Mountain village, and I’d say that at least 50% of those climbers are black. Shifting the mountain to private ownership is not a good idea, unless you are happy with the idea of pricing a lot of people out of access to a beautiful park. Leave the monument alone. We don’t need to go all Taliban on historical monuments. This park was, after all, created as a military memorial. Where else would you expect to find statues of these guys? The black people who actually live in the area use the park freely. They don’t seem cowed or intimidated by the ghosts of the Confederacy, so why would anyone else get worked up about it? Anyhow, Atlanta has its reminders of [Union](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/Sherman%202.jpg) [generals](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/Sherman%201.jpg), as well. 😃 Now one change that should be made is this: at the foot of the mountain, where the climb begins, [there is a set of flagpoles dedicated to flags of the Confederacy](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/Stone%20Mountain%20flags%201.jpg). [Hikers](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/Stone%20Mountain%20flags%202.jpg) [must](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/Stone%20Mountain%20flags%204.jpg) [pass](http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/spoke-/SDMB/Stone%20Mountain%20flags%203.jpg) those flags to ascend the mountain. Those flags are inappropriate in such a display, even at this monument. Retire them to the museum on-site, and provide some context. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/212 "2015-06-28T20:59:20Z")
Serious question: how much state money goes into the park? As I understand it, I thought the state created a non-profit to look after the park which was intended to be self-sustaining. I’m happy to be corrected, but it sounds to me like if the non-profit were privatized, I don’t think anything would change in terms of the park’s finances. From the park’s website: The Stone Mountain Memorial Association (SMMA), a State of Georgia authority, is charged by Georgia law with **self-sufficiently** managing the State owned Stone Mountain Park. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/213 "2015-06-28T21:05:55Z")
But if you fully privatize it, the private owners are going to look to maximize profits. Translation: admission fees at all points. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/214 "2015-06-28T21:32:41Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > But if you fully privatize it, the private owners are going to look to maximize profits. Translation: admission fees at all points. Well, I suppose they would have to judge whether they wanted to be a NON-PROFIT organization as they are today, or whether they want to “maximize profits” as you suggest. It isn’t like having a privately owned park is something that is a bizarre libertarian experiment without precedent. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/215 "2015-06-28T21:35:05Z")
I do support some acts of vandalism, even when the item is private property. E.G. I work right next to a privately owned statue of Lenin which was bought by a private individual after the collapse of the soviet union. I silently cheer every time someone paints his hands read again. It would be different if there was a prominent feature explaining his evil actions, and I would not support ISIS style destruction. But the painting of his hands red is mostly non-destructive and gets the message across very clearly. [![](https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ddd70e04-df9a-11e4-b8da-b4066da9547e.jpg?d=2040x2919) ](https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ddd70e04-df9a-11e4-b8da-b4066da9547e.jpg?d=2040x2919) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/216 "2015-06-28T21:38:57Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Which is why I fully support an **individuals** right to display that rag as much as they want. But there should be _zero_ governmental support of it at _any_ level. Let it be a sign to everyone that the displayer is an asshole and to be outcast from Civilization. Ouch … Government herself _doesn’t_ have free speech? Then who regulates it? I say it’s the voters, and the voters of Georgia and South Carolina are entitled to fly whatever flag they want to on their public property. Now I’m not going so far as to say these several States are proud to be full of `assholes and to be outcasts from Civilization`, I see then more as “impoverished third-world nations”. They don’t spend very much on their education systems, and the last 50 years they’ve had to divide it up between whities and darkies … it’s just not working very well. “California Republic” … there’s a State Flag that openly _threatens_ to secede !!! ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/217 "2015-06-28T21:43:43Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Ouch … > > Government herself _doesn’t_ have free speech? Then who regulates it? I say it’s the voters, and the voters of Georgia and South Carolina are entitled to fly whatever flag they want to on their public property. Now I’m not going so far as to say these several States are proud to be full of `assholes and to be outcasts from Civilization`, I see then more as “impoverished third-world nations”. They don’t spend very much on their education systems, and the last 50 years they’ve had to divide it up between whities and darkies … it’s just not working very well. > > “California Republic” … there’s a State Flag that openly _threatens_ to secede !!! Government display is equivalent to official state sanctioning of the ideals. The state should be restricted from publicly endorsing racism. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/218 "2015-06-28T21:59:44Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Government herself _doesn’t_ have free speech? Funnily enough, there was another Supreme Court decision on this issue last week. > [@](#): > > The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that Texas is allowed to reject a license plate design that featured a Confederate battle flag. > > In a 5-4 decision authored by Justice Stephen Breyer the Court held that the license plates designs are government—not private speech-- and that the government is allowed to discriminate based upon content when it speaks. > > “When the government speaks, it is not barred by the Free Speech Clause from determining the content of what it says” Breyer wrote. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/219 "2015-06-28T22:02:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Government display is equivalent to official state sanctioning of the ideals. The state should be restricted from publicly endorsing racism. Exactly, why should we restrict a State’s official sanctioning of any ideal. We have written laws that prohibit the practice of racism, if South Carolina is being prudent in the enforcement of these anti-racist laws … they’re free to say the laws should be changed. _Federale_ rights vs. States rights … a truly Great Debate. I’m waiting to see if South Carolina can even try this wacko ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/220 "2015-06-28T23:05:24Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Exactly, why should we restrict a State’s official sanctioning of any ideal. We have written laws that prohibit the practice of racism, if South Carolina is being prudent in the enforcement of these anti-racist laws … they’re free to say the laws should be changed. > > _Federale_ rights vs. States rights … a truly Great Debate. > > I’m waiting to see if South Carolina can even try this wacko I suggest you go read Federalist No. 10. Protecting minoritys from the majority is a core concept of the foundation of this country. Despite the fact we have been imperfect in doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=12)