# R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/221 "2015-06-28T23:44:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Government display is equivalent to official state sanctioning of the ideals. The state should be restricted from publicly endorsing racism. Absolutely. It is baffling to me that this even needs to be stated. And baffling squared that people don’t realize it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/222 "2015-06-28T23:53:16Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Robert E. Lee is considered one of the finest military leaders in American history. So deeply respected by his peers that General Grant refused Lee’s surrender until he went back and strapped on his sword. I said nothing about the man’s military acumen. The simple facts are that he was a traitor to his country, he was a top leader in an armed insurrection against his country, and he did not succeed in his treason. > [@](#): > > By that logic, then we should strike Hannibal’s name from all the history books and never teach his strategies at West Point. You want to keep out of the Pit, don’t be disingenuous about my posts. There is nothing wrong whatsoever in teaching tactics, even tactics that failed, in any military educational institution. Just like a police department teaches its members how criminals commit crimes, it’s a good idea for a military school to inform its students tactics regardless of who used those tactics. > [@](#): > > Should we tear down all the monument to American Indian Nations who fought us, rip apart their customs and beliefs, give their reservation lands to ADM, prohibit them speaking their languages … c’mon, they killed American soldiers … > > Maybe that’s the reasons other community’s neighbors flag the Confederate Battle Flag, my neighbors wouldn’t burn down a church … that’s a felony … they’d have to surrender their guns … and their guns are more important to them than some stupid flag, Confederate or United States. > > I find it hard to believe anyone could **not** that connection … but then again the limits on the intelligence of the typical conservative bigot defies belief. > > * * * > > Free speech protections aren’t in place to protect inoffensive speech … just saying … Now you’re in a fantasy-land regarding my post, and you also insulted me outside the Pit. Do either one again and we’re off to the Pit with you. Capiche? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/223 "2015-06-28T23:58:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Which is why I fully support an **individuals** right to display that rag as much as they want. But there should be _zero_ governmental support of it at _any_ level. Let it be a sign to everyone that the displayer is an asshole and to be outcast from Civilization. (ETA: I’m going to pretend that you extend such sentiments to all confederate monuments and road names. That’s a strawman, but it makes it easier to form a contrast with a more moderate position. On edit at least.) My take is that train left the station long ago: it was agreed that the South be readmitted with malice towards none and charity towards all. Whites made their peace and African Americans got the shaft. Not surprising as they basically had no political power at the time. Taking an absolutist stance whitewashes all of that. Doing it quickly would be construed as thumbing our noses at white Southern traditionalists. That’s not a great way forward. Personally, I like to apply the laugh test. Flying the rebel flag over the state capitol fails. Honoring Forrest fails: I’m relieved that he wasn’t carved into 4 acres of granite. For the present, more complex characters like Robert E Lee currently would get a pass in most cases, though I typically wouldn’t devote any new roads to him. At any rate, making all of this a cause of the day strikes me as a really bad idea. Yes, RE Lee was a traitor. And changing the names of roads is a pain in the ass. I think there are limits to the efforts that should be put into matters of symbolism. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/224 "2015-06-29T00:06:35Z")
You know who else was a great general? Hitler! No, that’s not true. Benedict Arnold. That is true. Why no memorials in the U.S. commemorating his several very successful campaigns? A whitewash of history, I say! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/225 "2015-06-29T00:55:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Benedict Arnold. That is true. Why no memorials in the U.S. commemorating his several very successful campaigns? A whitewash of history, I say! Falsehood! Propaganda! There is the [Monument to Benedict Arnold’s boot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument) in Saratoga NY. Hm. I think RE Lee deserves one as well. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/226 "2015-06-29T02:37:58Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Yes, RE Lee was a traitor. And changing the names of roads is a pain in the ass. I think there are limits to the efforts that should be put into matters of symbolism. Of course you are correct. But there needs to be the Fear of Og put into those who cling to the idea that the Confederacy was anything but a bunch to traitors and losers. Once they are cowed and docile, we can toss them a bone or two like naming a waste treatment center after some general who wasn’t too slimy. 😛 Total disclosure: My antecedents are from South Carolina. I’m probably related to 80% of the population of Laurens County. Several of said antecedents fought for the Confederacy. They were traitors and losers. Family, but traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/227 "2015-06-29T02:46:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Falsehood! Propaganda! There is the [Monument to Benedict Arnold’s boot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument) in Saratoga NY. > > Hm. I think RE Lee deserves one as well. If there were monuments to Confederate generals that neither mentioned their names nor showed their faces, I’d be okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![Tread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Tread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tread)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/228 "2015-06-30T11:24:46Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Yes, I think he’s probably trying to make an argument along these lines, but I can’t believe anyone would make an argument this silly and expect to be taken seriously. When the position is the only reason for the Civil War was Slavery,… what makes it a silly argument that when the Union says … OK end this war now, and you can keep slaves, but it was declined, so there must have been more to it than slavery… what makes that silly… My position is still that it was more than slavery . ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/229 "2015-06-30T11:30:54Z")
> [@Tread](#): > > When the position is the only reason for the Civil War was Slavery,… what makes it a silly argument that when the Union says … OK end this war now, and you can keep slaves, but it was declined, so there must have been more to it than slavery… what makes that silly… > My position is still that it was more than slavery . Certainly - for the Union it was about the South seceding. The south seceded because of slavery and the expansion thereof. They said so in their declarations of causes of secession. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/230 "2015-06-30T11:31:57Z")
> [@Tread](#): > > When the position is the only reason for the Civil War was Slavery,… what makes it a silly argument that when the Union says … OK end this war now, and you can keep slaves, but it was declined, so there must have been more to it than slavery… what makes that silly… > My position is still that it was more than slavery . It was almost all slavery, according to their statements and the articles of secession from various states. As to why they rejected such an offer from the Union, according to their statements and articles of secession, they wanted _permanent_ slavery, never to be threatened by federal action or pressure, and they didn’t trust that slavery would remain permanent if they stayed in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/231 "2015-06-30T22:31:27Z")
Pardon if it’s already been posted, but this video absolutely made my stomach hurt from laughing the first time I saw it. It was made in Dalton, GA earlier this week and is quickly going viral. And remember: God don’t like ugly! [NSFW due to language](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/29/confederate-flag-truck-parade_n_7692696.html), and the action starts about 1 minute in if you’re in a rush for time. And if they’d ever seen even a single episode of DUKES OF HAZZARD they’d have known there was going to be a multicar collision. (PS- Not sure what direction those trucks were headed, but the last time lots of Confederate battle flags went through the town going fast they were headed South, with Sherman behind them.) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/232 "2015-06-30T23:09:07Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > (PS- Not sure what direction those trucks were headed, but the last time lots of Confederate battle flags went through the town going fast they were headed South, with Sherman behind them.) Dude. Too soon. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/233 "2015-07-01T01:49:46Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Falsehood! Propaganda! There is the [Monument to Benedict Arnold’s boot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument) in Saratoga NY. > > Hm. I think RE Lee deserves one as well. Yeah, I’d support giving Mars Bobby the boot. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/234 "2015-07-01T03:03:06Z")
> [@Tread](#): > > When the position is the only reason for the Civil War was Slavery,… what makes it a silly argument that when the Union says … OK end this war now, and you can keep slaves, but it was declined, so there must have been more to it than slavery… what makes that silly… > My position is still that it was more than slavery . The North did not fight to free the slaves, although that motive was added as the war progressed. The North was not even trying to free the slaves when the South seceded. The South did secede to promote slavery. (To which the North responded by preventing secession.) The South feared that the admission of future free states would tip the balance in Congress so that at some future unknown date, the North just might try to end slavery. It was slavery that prompted secession. More than slavery? Sort of. But slavery was behind all the other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/235 "2015-07-01T05:34:56Z")
> [@Tread](#): > > When the position is the only reason for the Civil War was Slavery,… what makes it a silly argument that when the Union says … OK end this war now, and you can keep slaves, but it was declined, so there must have been more to it than slavery… what makes that silly… > My position is still that it was more than slavery . Well, good for you. But here’s the thing. Most wars have more than one cause, and if someone wants to make the claim that the Civil War had more than one case, including slavery, well, I wouldn’t agree, but it’s a defensible position. But there are a lot of people who run around pretending that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery. There are a lot of people who run around pretending that reasons that the Southern states seceded had nothing to do with slavery. That’s racist, historical- revisionist, bullshit. If you don’t want people thinking that’s what you are doing, then make yourself clearer from the get go. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/236 "2015-07-01T12:07:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If there were monuments to Confederate generals that neither mentioned their names nor showed their faces, I’d be okay with that. Benedict Arnold is also honored _in absentia_ at the Saratoga Monument near Schuylerville, NY that has niches for each of the major American contributors in the battles of Saratoga: Philip Schuyler, Daniel Morgan, Horatio Gates and Benedict Arnold. Because Arnold later turned traitor, his niche is left empty, but it is still called Arnold’s Niche. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/237 "2015-07-01T12:19:19Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Benedict Arnold is also honored _in absentia_ at the Saratoga Monument near Schuylerville, NY that has niches for each of the major American contributors in the battles of Saratoga: Philip Schuyler, Daniel Morgan, Horatio Gates and Benedict Arnold. Because Arnold later turned traitor, his niche is left empty, but it is still called Arnold’s Niche. Which again has virtually nothing to do with the massive number of roads, schools, buildings, pools, parks, sports teams, license plates, interest groups, t-shirts, liquors, and god knows what else that are named for Confederate politicians or generals. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/238 "2015-07-01T18:12:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which again has virtually nothing to do with the massive number of roads, schools, buildings, pools, parks, sports teams, license plates, interest groups, t-shirts, liquors, and god knows what else that are named for Confederate politicians or generals. Even in non-Confederate states they are honored, sometimes more than officers and politicians from the Union. It’s absolutely ridiculous to take pro-Confederate flag and monument arguments at face value considering the whitewashing of Civil War history. > [@](#): > > Take Kentucky. Kentucky’s legislature voted not to secede, and early in the war, Confederate Gen. Albert Sidney Johnston ventured through the western part of the state and found “no enthusiasm as we imagined and hoped but hostility … in Kentucky.” Eventually, 90,000 Kentuckians would fight for the United States, while 35,000 fought for the Confederate States. Nevertheless, according to historian Thomas Clark, the state now has 72 Confederate monuments and only two Union ones. [http://wpo.st/RA-P0](http://wpo.st/RA-P0) ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/239 "2015-07-01T20:26:17Z")
This is the kind of information that pisses me off. > **[Poll: After Charleston, a nation divided on the Confederate flag](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/30/usa-today-suffolk-poll-confederate-flag-gun-control/29500975/)** > > In a survey, Americans see little that could or will be done to prevent mass shootings. According to that poll (I still can’t completely believe it) the nation is split over whether the confederate flag is a racist symbol. SPLIT !!! It’s a sign of so much rot and confusion over history it’s absolutely maddening. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/240 "2015-07-02T22:18:41Z")
In addition to standard gauge railroads, the industrialized north gave the south: running water, indoor toilets and electricity. TVA brought the South industry and jobs. The advent of shoes eliminated the endemic hookworm problem. Confederacy - Good Riddance! Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=13)