# R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/21 "2015-06-23T13:20:14Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > That’s great and all, but it doesn’t change the fact that the North was mobilizing troops before the South fired a shot (Lincoln had already declared that no State would be allowed to secede. To deny that much is to argue against history. I don’t see why this matters. It was very wise for him to mobilize troops – the South was preparing to attack, and did attack. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/22 "2015-06-23T13:23:52Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Lincoln mobilized troops to march on the South. Who fired first is immaterial to that fact. > > As far as the OP, people just want something to complain about. For fuck’s sake get your facts straight. For the umpenth time, Lincoln did not call upon 75,000 volunteers until **after** the South had fired upon Fort Sumter. Who fired first is rather material to that fact. Here, [cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_Lincoln's_75,000_Volunteers), bolding mine: > [@](#): > > President Lincoln’s 75,000 Volunteers was a call by the President of the United States on April 15, 1861 to summon 75,000 militia to serve for three months **following the bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter**. Some slave states refused to send troops against their neighboring states, with the result that most such states also declared secession from the United States and joined the Confederate States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/23 "2015-06-23T13:28:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Cutting through the rights crap and revisionism, the US government, generals and volunteers were just traitors to their rightful king, the king of England. Had England won, it would be a different case. For example, there would probably be statutes of Benedict Arnold all over these colonies. But that isn’t the case. On the other hand, how many things does this country have named after Jefferson Davis? Highways, monuments, parks, schools… we’re lousy with things named after him. How does that make sense? > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > That’s great and all, but it doesn’t change the fact that the North was mobilizing troops before the South fired a shot (Lincoln had already declared that no State would be allowed to secede. To deny that much is to argue against history. I see. By that reasoning, the United States was the aggressor in the war against Japan. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/24 "2015-06-23T13:34:39Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > That’s great and all, but it doesn’t change the fact that the North was mobilizing troops before the South fired a shot (Lincoln had already declared that no State would be allowed to secede. To deny that much is to argue against history. Lincoln was inaugurated March 4th, 1861. The bombardment began on April 12th, 1861. 5 weeks is a quick time to sneak in a quick mobilization even by modern standards. The reality is that the South had been mobilizing since February, expecting (hoping) a fight. They’d already seized most Federal installations - Ft. Sumter was the last (or next to last, I forget). Capping it off with an assault on a US Military post, the South asked for a fight, got their asses kicked, and their apologists now paint them as aggrieved victims. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/25 "2015-06-23T13:39:13Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > 1. With the exceptions of troops that were illegally conscripted by the Confederacy, the Confederate government, its generals, leadership, and volunteers were all traitors to the United States government, and it was through the grace of God and mercy of the North most of them weren’t executed or imprisoned. I’m actually disgusted Lincoln didn’t put most of the leadership on trial. Im guessing it was in a treaty somewhere. Your disgust with Lincoln is somewhat unfair, seeing as how Lincoln was suffering from a serious case of being dead at the time. The war wasn’t really over when Lincoln was shot. That said, this is one of those things where two things are true: 1. The South’s leaders and generals deserved to hang. They were traitors. 2. NOT hanging them was unquestionably the right thing to do. Just because someone deserves punishment does not mean that punishment is best meted out. Mass hangings would have made the post-war period much more difficult. Having leading Confederates involved in reuniting the country was a stroke of genius. The deification of Confederates, and (pun intended) whitewashing of their agenda took decades to happen and didn’t really pick up steam until the 20th century. In the period immediately following the Civil War there wasn’t a rush to fly Confederate flags and name fucking everything after Jefferson Davis. All this “northern aggression” nonsense is a recent invention. In the post-war period the Confederates were beaten and accepted they were beaten, and Northern leadership decided that forgiveness and decency, rather than blood and anger, was the best way to reunite the country. For the most part it was the right move. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/26 "2015-06-23T13:48:22Z")
I think the romanticizing of the antebellum South began with “Gone With The Wind”. People started thinking that the pre-war South was some kind of Tara-like wonderland. It wasn’t-it was poor, dirty, and violent. The only people who lived well were the rich plantation owners-and there were not many of them. The mortality rate among the slaves and poor whites was staggering-there were almost no hospitals, and few schools. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/27 "2015-06-23T14:01:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Had England won, it would be a different case. Yeh, slavery would have ended a couple of decades earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/28 "2015-06-23T14:03:14Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > For fuck’s sake get your facts straight. For the umpenth time, Lincoln did not call upon 75,000 volunteers until **after** the South had fired upon Fort Sumter. Who fired first is rather material to that fact. Oh, my apologies. I was working under the obviously mistaken impression that Lincoln ordered Fort Sumter restocked over the objections of the South (this after restocking Fort Pickens with troops). You might want to pick up a history book and read it. Yeah, the South “fired first”, but don’t act like it was out of the blue with no lead up (and don’t act as if the North wasn’t preparing for war with the South, either). Remember, Lincoln refused to hear the South’s anti war proposal. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see why this matters. It was very wise for him to mobilize troops – the South was preparing to attack, and did attack. The South had no intentions of invading the North. Again, to argue against this is to deny history. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/29 "2015-06-23T14:04:25Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think the romanticizing of the antebellum South began with “Gone With The Wind”. People started thinking that the pre-war South was some kind of Tara-like wonderland. It wasn’t-it was poor, dirty, and violent. The only people who lived well were the rich plantation owners-and there were not many of them. The mortality rate among the slaves and poor whites was staggering-there were almost no hospitals, and few schools. The “Lost Cause” myth began just after war ended. Because of various reasons, it didn’t really get going until just before the turn of the century. The Georgian Encyclopedia’s article on the [Lost Cause Religion](http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/lost-cause-religion) is quite illuminating. > [@](#): > > When scholars of religion refer to myth, they do not mean to imply a falsehood. Rather, in the context of religious studies, a myth is a foundational or sacred story, a story that explains. Lost Cause proponents knew well the power of myth. The main components of the Lost Cause myth, repeated in writings, sermons, lectures, and speeches by scores of postwar southern figures, are easily identified. First, the prewar South—the Old South—was a place of nobility and chivalry. (There is no better capsule description of the Old South of the Lost Cause myth than the opening words of the movie version of _Gone With the Wind_, with its elegiac reference to the now-vanished pretty world “of Cavaliers and Cotton Fields,” where gallantry “took its last bow.”) Margaret Mitchell grew up in the state where the most common inscription on Confederate monuments was “No nation rose so white and fair: None fell so pure of crime.” But she was also a fine story teller whose great heroine gave not one fuck about The Cause. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/30 "2015-06-23T14:06:53Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The South had no intentions of invading the North. Again, to argue against this is to deny history. The South (or its leaders) had every intention of attacking Union property/territory and Union soldiers, and that’s what they did. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/31 "2015-06-23T14:08:14Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The South had no intentions of invading the North. Like how Japan didn’t want to take over California, eh? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/32 "2015-06-23T14:14:19Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Oh, my apologies. I was working under the obviously mistaken impression that Lincoln ordered Fort Sumter restocked over the objections of the South (this after restocking Fort Pickens with troops). > > You might want to pick up a history book and read it. Yeah, the South “fired first”, but don’t act like it was out of the blue with no lead up (and don’t act as if the North wasn’t preparing for war with the South, either). Remember, Lincoln refused to hear the South’s anti war proposal. > > The South had no intentions of invading the North. Again, to argue against this is to deny history. It was a federal installation and Lincoln had every right to order it resupplied. Just as if Obama has the right to send supplies to Ft Hood no matter what Texas thinks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/33 "2015-06-23T14:22:52Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Not heritage, but hate. There’s no need to choose! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/34 "2015-06-23T14:35:12Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Remember, Lincoln refused to hear the South’s anti war proposal. Which was? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/35 "2015-06-23T14:36:34Z")
IIRC “We keep the slaves”? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/36 "2015-06-23T14:37:03Z")
In other news, _Mein Kampf_ is a best seller in Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/37 "2015-06-23T14:58:00Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The “Lost Cause” myth began just after war ended. Because of various reasons, it didn’t really get going until just before the turn of the century. The Georgian Encyclopedia’s article on the [Lost Cause Religion](http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/lost-cause-religion) is quite illuminating. > > Margaret Mitchell grew up in the state where the most common inscription on Confederate monuments was “No nation rose so white and fair: None fell so pure of crime.” But she was also a fine story teller whose great heroine gave not one fuck about The Cause. Good points…in 1900, there were plenty of Civil war vets around; no doubt they enjoyed the acclaim that the myth gave to them. Even as late as 1930, there were thousands of vets around, only to happy to tell stories. “Gone With The Wind” really sealed the deal-besides being a great novel, it fitted in nicely with the mythos. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/38 "2015-06-23T15:09:42Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > (You\* do\* know that many of us doubt the veracity of your user name.) That’s enough, right there. No more attacking the poster. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/39 "2015-06-23T15:16:27Z")
First, I’m not a Southerner. I live in the South now, but was born and raised in New York. The Stars and Bars mean nothing to me, and anyone who cares to search through archives here will see I’ve been on record as wanting the Confederate flag removed from state houses and capital buildings in any Southern state that still flies them. That said… why is this a huge deal NOW? Because of Dylann Roof? Sorry, that makes no sense. He was NOT motivated by a Confederate flag flying (NOT on any important South Carolina government building but merely) on a Civil War memorial. Taking the flag down is all well and good, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Dylann Roof’s murder spree, and it’s just silly to connect the two things. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/40 "2015-06-23T15:17:31Z")
I don’t even want to get into this kettle of fish. But I do wonder, if the South had won, would we still be a slave nation today? Would there just be a nation to the south that held black slaves and held all other races other than white in contempt? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=3)