# R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/81 "2015-06-24T13:51:44Z")
I don’t understand how one nutcase with a picture of a Confederate flag can cause so much uproar over a silly piece of cloth, and the history behind it. I’m more worried about how that idiot got a gun than that flag. Obviously, getting rid of that flag will solve the problem of murderous, bigoted pricks shooting innocent people in our society. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/82 "2015-06-24T13:53:33Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That said… why is this a huge deal NOW? Because of Dylann Roof? Sorry, that makes no sense. He was NOT motivated by a Confederate flag flying (NOT on any important South Carolina government building but merely) on a Civil War memorial. Taking the flag down is all well and good, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Dylann Roof’s murder spree, and it’s just silly to connect the two things. If it’s “well and good” then let’s do it. No, it’s not directly connected to Roof and played no part in the shooting. The shooting and S. Carolina capitol imagery gave people reason to pause and think “You know what? That we’re flying this at all is pretty fucked up” and re-evaluate something that’s coasted by on momentum and casual acceptance of racism. It doesn’t need to be connected to roof, it stands on its own merits. Roof’s actions were just the catalyst to make people think about it. While it won’t bring anyone back to life, it is nice to think that Roof’s attempts to instigate a race war resulted in people honestly evaluating a symbol of racism and judging it as deplorable. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/83 "2015-06-24T14:04:59Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Oh the analogy is apt. You just don’t like the fact that it is and you are adding some nonsense qualifiers. It’s a fair analogy. The colonies were committing treason against the crown. But they never claimed the crown were the aggressors, and they were just defending themselves. They claimed they were under a tyrant and fought it. And won. And if they’d lost, you wouldn’t see American flags flying on British government grounds with the bullshit excuse, “It’s heritage!” ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/84 "2015-06-24T14:33:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I don’t understand how one nutcase with a picture of a Confederate flag can cause so much uproar over a silly piece of cloth, and the history behind it. I’m more worried about how that idiot got a gun than that flag. Obviously, getting rid of that flag will solve the problem of murderous, bigoted pricks shooting innocent people in our society. Well bless your heart, you really don’t have a clue, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/85 "2015-06-24T14:39:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Absolutely not. The United States engaged in war, but would never have formally _declared_ war; to do so would be to recognize that the CSA was a legitimate nation-state. A nitpick, but I’ll concede the point. I’ll amend my post to “I won’t argue that if the Confederacy hadn’t started a war, the United States wouldn’t have eventually done so.” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/86 "2015-06-24T14:50:47Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I don’t understand how one nutcase with a picture of a Confederate flag can cause so much uproar over a silly piece of cloth, and the history behind it. The kindling has been laid and thoroughly soaked in fuel. This was a spark, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/87 "2015-06-24T14:52:13Z")
> [@bup](#): > > And if they’d lost, you wouldn’t see American flags flying on British government grounds with the bullshit excuse, “It’s heritage!” Especially if they were coupled with bumper stickers that read “The Colonies Shall Rise Again!” ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/88 "2015-06-24T15:01:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It’s a fair analogy. > > The colonies were committing treason against the crown. > > But they never claimed the crown were the aggressors, and they were just defending themselves. They claimed they were under a tyrant and fought it. And won. And they knew they were committing treason: > [@Ben Franklin](#): > > We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall hang separately. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/89 "2015-06-24T15:06:26Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think the romanticizing of the antebellum South began with “Gone With The Wind”. People started thinking that the pre-war South was some kind of Tara-like wonderland. It wasn’t-it was poor, dirty, and violent. The only people who lived well were the rich plantation owners-and there were not many of them. The mortality rate among the slaves and poor whites was staggering-there were almost no hospitals, and few schools. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The “Lost Cause” myth began just after war ended. Because of various reasons, it didn’t really get going until just before the turn of the century. The Georgian Encyclopedia’s article on the [Lost Cause Religion](http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/lost-cause-religion) is quite illuminating. Yeah, that romanticizing didn’t begin with GWTW, but GWTW certainly helped spread it far and wide. The book sold \>30 million copies (and counting; the damned thing is still popular), and the movie has also been seen by tens of millions of Americans. > [@](#): > > Margaret Mitchell grew up in the state where the most common inscription on Confederate monuments was “No nation rose so white and fair: None fell so pure of crime.” But she was also a fine story teller whose great heroine gave not one fuck about The Cause. Scarlett didn’t give one fuck about the Cause, but Mitchell certainly did, and that comes through loud and clear in the book. Especially when it came to Reconstruction, which she (in her narrative voice) described as a worse evil than the war itself. And while it’s impossible to actually _portray_ Reconstruction as being more destructive than the war, her slanted portrayal of Reconstruction paints a picture of poor helpless Southerners being victimized by an unholy alliance of Carpetbaggers and freed Negroes. (I re-read GWTW for the first time in 40 years, several months back, so my recollections of the book are fresh in mind.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/90 "2015-06-24T15:21:11Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Why does it surprise you that Lincoln refused to hear the South’s “anti-war” proposal? To do so would be to recognize the Confederacy as a legitimate nation rather than states in rebellion against the legitimate government of the United States. Thanks for bringing this up. Lincoln was exceedingly careful throughout his Presidency to avoid doing anything that would remotely appear to recognize the Confederacy as a nation rather than an illegitimate rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/91 "2015-06-24T15:28:20Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Then there’s the nutty fact that 10 US Army posts are named after Confederate generals: > [ul] > [li]Fort AP Hill, VA - Confederate General Amborse Powell (AP) Hill[/li][li]Camp Beauregard LA - Confederate General P. G. T. Beauregard[/li][li]Fort Benning, GA – Confederate Brigadier General Henry L. Benning[/li][li]Fort Bragg, NC – Confederate General Braxton Bragg[/li][li]Fort Gordon, GA - Confederate Lieutenant General John Brown Gordon[/li][li]Fort Hood, TX - Confederate General John Bell Hood[/li][li]Fort Lee, VA – Confederate General Robert E. Lee[/li][li]Fort Picket VA - Confederate General George E. Pickett[/li][li]Fort Polk, LA - Confederate General Reverend Leonidas Polk[/li][li]Fort Rucker, AL – Confederate Colonel Edmund W. Rucker[/li][li]Fort Stewart, GA – Confederate Brigadier General Daniel Stewart[/li][li]Camp Van Dorn MS – Confederate General Earl Van Dorn[/li][/ul] > I think in hindsight it was exceptionally wise, if not ideal, to reunite Southern military mythology with the US military establishment. Better to rehabilitate the leadership and keep the holdouts marginalized. (Doubters - see the destruction of the Iraqi Army and Baath Party). > > There is also a fine line to be drawn on censorship of symbols. Yes, they do have power and influence, but repressing them can imbue them with even more power and influence. It’s reasonable to see that any state government flying the Confederate flag is flirting with open rebellion even in this late age, and the US would be justified in removing said flag (with military force if necessary). This would be about as effective as killing al-Qaeda’s #2 leader yet again - even more would pop up. > > So the reality is that we live in a divided country, and if a civil war wasn’t enough to secure a decisive ideological victory, then it is wise to tread lightly when addressing these divisions. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > Yeah, but after 150 years I think its safe to say were united militarily as a country. At the very least, surely after 150 years, the South has produced enough non-Civil war leaders to names these bases after, if that is what this is all about. Indeed. Certainly we could name a few forts after Presidents and Vice-Presidents who were from the South but were not Dixiecrats and the like. Could rename Fort Benning, GA after Jimmy Carter, a couple of the Virginia bases after Bill Clinton and Al Gore since there aren’t any Tennessee or Arkansas bases on this list, and rename Ft. Hood, TX after…(drumroll)…George W. Bush. Let Texas own his stupidity. 😃 ETA: Forgot LBJ. We can rename a base after him too. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/92 "2015-06-24T15:29:40Z")
> [@grayhairedmomma](#): > > Well bless your heart, you really don’t have a clue, do you? Let’s keep the personal comments out of Great Debates, please. No warning. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/93 "2015-06-24T16:18:38Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I don’t understand how one nutcase with a picture of a Confederate flag can cause so much uproar over a silly piece of cloth, and the history behind it. I’m more worried about how that idiot got a gun than that flag. Obviously, getting rid of that flag will solve the problem of murderous, bigoted pricks shooting innocent people in our society. Shit, I’m just glad that **something** has changed in the wake of a mass shooting, for once. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/94 "2015-06-24T16:46:53Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Indeed. Certainly we could name a few forts after Presidents and Vice-Presidents who were from the South but were not Dixiecrats and the like. Could rename Fort Benning, GA after Jimmy Carter, a couple of the Virginia bases after Bill Clinton and Al Gore since there aren’t any Tennessee or Arkansas bases on this list, and rename Ft. Hood, TX after…(drumroll)…George W. Bush. Let Texas own his stupidity. 😃 Can we at least rename it after a competent commander this time around? OTOH I’d still like to rename Ft. Gordon as Ft. Sherman, but that’s just me being a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/95 "2015-06-24T16:49:49Z")
**Jophiel** : Your commentary on this is the 2nd best I’ve seen or heard. The best was by Jon Stewart. > [@Jophiel](#): > > If it’s “well and good” then let’s do it. No, it’s not directly connected to Roof and played no part in the shooting. The shooting and S. Carolina capitol imagery gave people reason to pause and think “You know what? That we’re flying this at all is pretty fucked up” and re-evaluate something that’s coasted by on momentum and casual acceptance of racism. > > It doesn’t need to be connected to roof, it stands on its own merits. Roof’s actions were just the catalyst to make people think about it. While it won’t bring anyone back to life, it is nice to think that Roof’s attempts to instigate a race war resulted in people honestly evaluating a symbol of racism and judging it as deplorable. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/96 "2015-06-24T16:50:06Z")
> **[Alabama governor orders Confederate flags taken down | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/politics/alabama-governor-confederate-flags/)** > > Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley has directed that four Confederate flags be taken down from a Confederate memorial at the state capitol. Alabama Governor to confederate flags: Bye Bye ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/97 "2015-06-24T16:54:49Z")
I find it odd that the primary result of Dylann Roof’s murder spree has been to launch debates about a completely unrelated topic. But then, that’s been the result of MOST murder sprees in the recent past, hasn’t it? The Columbine massacre’s chief result was huge growth in the anti-bullying movement. Even though bullying had absolutely NOTHING to do with Klebold and Harris’ crime!!! The shooting of Congresswoman Gabbi Gifford led to cries for “civility” among conservative political commentators. Even though the shooter had never listened to any conservative political commentators! And now, a shooting spree has led to arguments about the Confederate flag. Even though the Confederate flag does NOT fly over any state buildings in South Carolina and hasn’t in decades! When the Confederate flag was removed from state buildings in Columbia, South Carolina, keeping the flag by a monument to the Confederate dead was seen as a reasonable compromise. I STILL think it’s a pretty reasonable compromise. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/98 "2015-06-24T17:00:40Z")
Maybe we should bulldoze all the confederate cemeteries and war memorials and pretend the Civil War never happened? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/99 "2015-06-24T17:06:31Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Maybe we should bulldoze all the confederate cemeteries and war memorials and pretend the Civil War never happened? Worth a try ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/100 "2015-06-24T17:06:46Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > …When the Confederate flag was removed from state buildings in Columbia, South Carolina, keeping the flag by a monument to the Confederate dead was seen as a reasonable compromise. I STILL think it’s a pretty reasonable compromise. Why don’t you use the original flag of the CSA–the [Stars & Bars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America)? It’s historically correct but does not have quite the racist baggage as the Battle Flag. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=6)