# R.I.P. Confederacy----and good riddance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221 "2015-06-23T05:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/161 "2015-06-25T21:14:58Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Link to the official [Coat of Arms of Canada](http://www.heraldry.ca/misc/coatArmsCanada.htm). > > Is…is that a _fleur-de-lis_ on there, next to the harp? And is that a _fleur-de lis_ flag on the other side from the Union Jack? > > Wow. You’d almost think Canadians were _proud_ of their bilingual part-French heritage. Like that was their national policy or something. > > Meanwhile, the United States is _not_ “half-slave, half-free”. We don’t publish all our government signs and pamphlets and websites in two versions, one for the free states and one for the “slave-holding-states”. The most delicious part, which you omitted, is that the flag of Quebec is based on a flag that the French Canadians carried into battle against the Brits. So it’s a…wait for it…BATTLE FLAG!!! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/162 "2015-06-25T21:22:50Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The most delicious part, which you omitted, is that the flag of Quebec is based on a flag that the French Canadians carried into battle against the Brits. > > So it’s a…wait for it…BATTLE FLAG!!! Are you insane? You really can’t tell the difference between the U.S. Civil War and a global war between France and Britain? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/163 "2015-06-25T21:26:50Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > So it’s a…wait for it…BATTLE FLAG!!! _ **My** _ overwhelming objection to the Confederate (Battle) Flag is not that it’s a “Battle Flag”, or even a Battle Flag that was carried into battle against the United States. My overwhelming objection is that it’s the flag of a would-be country of which the [cornerstone of its government](http://civilwarcauses.org/corner.htm) was “that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and normal condition”; a would-be country [which was](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp) “thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery”; and a would-be country dedicated to the [propositions](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_texsec.asp) that “all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights” and that the “servitude of the African to the white race” “should exist in all future time”. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/164 "2015-06-25T21:44:09Z")
It’s not just the Confederacy. After Reconstruction, there was a rampage of white supremacist terrorism aimed at African Americans, and the terrorists waved that flag around. And then in the sixties, when African Americans and civil rights workers were fighting to guarantee the constitutional rights of African Americans, we had another explosion of white supremacist terrorism. People had fire hoses turned on them and had dogs sicced on them. They were beaten and lynched and assassinated. People were murdered in cold blood for trying to register to vote. Churches were blown up and the people (and children) inside them killed. And the terrorists who did all these things waved that flag around. And then one state and local government after another started waving that flag around in support of the terrorists. And the people who were victims of this outrageous spasm of violence are still alive today. It’s cruel and callous to wave a flag of terrorism at the victims of that terrorism. You could wear an al-Queda shirt in NYC or wave a Khmer Rouge flag around in Cambodia or wave a Nazi flag around in Israel or Poland, too, if you wanted to, I suppose. But I’m not going to think much of anyone who does these things. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/165 "2015-06-25T22:00:05Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The most delicious part, which you omitted, is that the flag of Quebec is based on a flag that the French Canadians carried into battle against the Brits. > > So it’s a…wait for it…BATTLE FLAG!!! Colonial troops would carry the standard of the _Compagnies Franches de la Marine_. Not to be confused with marines, it was more that the naval ministry was responsible for colonial defense. There would have been 18 gold fleurs-de-lis in each of the quarters. Colours are not certain for the quarters. Blue and red are mostly stated as the most probable. [http://tmg110.tripod.com/royfr2.htm](http://tmg110.tripod.com/royfr2.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/166 "2015-06-25T22:06:11Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Are you insane? You really can’t tell the difference between the U.S. Civil War and a global war between France and Britain? That was never the claim; see post #83. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/167 "2015-06-25T22:10:36Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > That was never the claim; see post #83. I did read post #83; I’m still uncertain as to how a war between France and Britain is comparable to the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/168 "2015-06-25T22:29:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Anyone else hear that in John Turturro’s voice from _Oh Brother, Where Art Thou_? > > **Sampiro**! We thought you was a toad! That’s exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/169 "2015-06-25T22:42:10Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Do. Not. Read. The. Comments. On. Any. Alabama. Social. Media. or. Newspaper. Site. Today. I’ve seen stupidity and racism masquerading as respectable ancestor worship before, but not like this- it’s on steroids and Viagra and a sip of white lightnin’ and a bump of coke. > > I live in Montgomery and I photoshopped a gay pride/rainbow flag onto one of the empty flagpoles and put it on my Facebook page with some mild social outrage about them “taking down our heritage and raising up a queer symbol” to see if I can start a movement. Just did it an hour ago and got some friends to share it and tweet it and already the leading news anchor in the region has asked somebody “OMG is this for real!” so hopefully it will make at least one racist asshole have a stroke. I consider it an honor that my name is included (as part of the quote) in your awesome post! ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/170 "2015-06-26T00:19:38Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > More irritation than bitterness, irritation that this delusional interpretation of the civil war that white washes the slavery issue as the driving factor has STILL not been slapped out of the minds of these fools. The sad fact is that many southerners are raised on this version of history. While I wasn’t raised on it, I was certainly exposed to it. In fact, the various conflicting “versions” of the Civil War that I heard were motivation for me to read several actual history books on the subject. And yes, there are people in the South who argue over the known facts of Civil War history. This nonsense about “Northern aggression” is just the tip of that particular iceberg. The reason that I’m bringing it up is that part about slapping some sense into these southerners, because I think the sentiment is a little harsh. Whoever started telling these lies deserves more than a slap, but I don’t see the southern kids who believed them as being much different than the ones who went to Catholic school with me and believed all that religious crap. The fact that I spent so many years looking for “real facts” makes me the strange one–they were more “normal”. And remember, when I was a kid the WWW wasn’t even really a gleam yet. Actively looking to verify what you were taught took a lot more effort back then. The really good news is that the WWW does exist now, and kids CAN easily investigate what they’re taught. And it IS happening, I think; although, it would be happening faster if we taught kids everywhere a little more about evaluating sources. In summary, there are a lot of people were _taught_ bullshit, and they definitely should be taught better, but saying they should be slapped for having been taught bullshit seems a little much. > [@Salvor](#): > > People actually take PRIDE in that flag? PRIDE in their ancestors fighting to succeed over slavery? Pride? They ought to feel embarrassed and ashamed of their forefathers involvement if they feel anything at all. Actually, a cognitively dissonant mix of both is pretty common. > [@Salvor](#): > > How many decades of failed broken logic and understanding can persist in the south? How stupid can those people be? How stupid can those people be? You would think there would be some limits and then you see comments in forums where throngs of these paint sniffers refuse to concede the primacy of slavery, the wrongness of the southern cause. It feels almost like you are talking to some deranged isis member so confused about reality as it is vs how they interpret it to be. Well, look at the Christian church, about which I keep asking myself, “How many centuries can this go on? How stupid can people be?” It’s not unreasonable to ask, but that doesn’t really get us anywhere. Best answer I’ve come up with is kids get taught bullshit from a young age, and kids are susceptible to bullshit. It doesn’t mean they were bad kids, and doesn’t necessarily make them bad adults. BUT, people who knowingly teach bullshit to more kids…you’ll not imagine many punishments for THEM I wouldn’t condone. To me, it’s no different than these assholes wanting to teach “intelligent design” as some kind of scientific controversy. We all have our own stupid shit to live with; teaching the kids is an opportunity to cut down on repeats. And if any of those kids are reading this thread, hearing that they need to be slapped isn’t really likely to help much. And just as an aside, I pretty much agree with the main thrust of this thread as a whole. I don’t even have any quibbles with **LHOD** ’s posts so far… -VM ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/171 "2015-06-26T00:52:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’re my hero for today. I’m rather a fan of this flag: [http://imgur.com/gallery/2DWXfGR](http://imgur.com/gallery/2DWXfGR) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/172 "2015-06-26T01:15:10Z")
Needs more Baphomet. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/173 "2015-06-26T01:24:33Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > People actually take PRIDE in that flag? PRIDE in their ancestors fighting to succeed over slavery? Pride? They ought to feel embarrassed and ashamed of their forefathers involvement if they feel anything at all. If nothing else, a lotta guys would be ashamed they got beat so bad and would want to sweep all mention of their forebearer’s involvement under the living room carpet. Because doing well in the early innings means nothing if your ass is kicked in the seventh, eighth, and ninth. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/174 "2015-06-26T01:59:04Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I did read post #83; I’m still uncertain as to how a war between France and Britain is comparable to the Civil War. That’s because the wars being compared were the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. They were both rebellions against the legitimate gov’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/175 "2015-06-26T02:12:30Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > That’s because the wars being compared were the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. They were both rebellions against the legitimate gov’t. Sure. The ideals underlying one were the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which the rebels figured the legitimate government was interfering with; the ideal underlying the other was the brutal subjugation of black people, which the rebels figured the legitimate government was going to interfere with. A turkey club and a shit sandwich both involve putting aromatic substances between slices of bread, but there’s an important difference between them. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/176 "2015-06-26T02:18:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure. The ideals underlying one were the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which the rebels figured the legitimate government was interfering with; the ideal underlying the other was the brutal subjugation of black people, which the rebels figured the legitimate government was going to interfere with. Well, the subjugation of black people was a key part of the first one, too. Slavery flourished under the American flag far longer than under the Confederate; slavery was essential to the economy of the whole of the young republic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/177 "2015-06-26T02:53:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Slavery flourished under the American flag far longer than under the Confederate; slavery was essential to the economy of the whole of the young republic. Of all the dumb defenses of the Confederacy, this has got to be one of the dumbest. The Confederacy existed for only four years. The United States has existed for 239 years (as of next week). Obviously any statistic based on duration is going to belong to the United States. You might as well argue that the Confederacy is better than the United States because it had fewer serial killers in its history. The significant difference is this: the United States voluntarily chose to abolish slavery. The Confederacy did not. The only reason Confederates gave up slavery was because they were forced to do so, literally at gunpoint. So much for Confederate moral superiority on the slavery issue. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/178 "2015-06-26T03:31:07Z")
Reading this thread got me wondering if Tony Horwitz (author of [Confederates In The Attic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederates_in_the_Attic) and [Midnight Rising](http://www.amazon.com/Midnight-Rising-Brown-Sparked-Civil/dp/0312429266)) had anything to say about recent events. As it turns out, he wrote an editorial just yesterday: [How The South Lost The War But Won The Narrative](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/how-south-lost-the-civil-war-won-narrative-confederate-flag). I think he sums it up well at the end– > [@](#): > > …what we truly need to bury is the gauzy fiction that the antebellum South was in any way benign, or that slavery and white supremacy weren’t the cornerstone of the Confederacy. Only then, perhaps, will we be able to say that the murdered in Charleston didn’t die in vain, and that the Lost Cause, at last, is well and truly lost. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/179 "2015-06-26T03:31:11Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Well, the subjugation of black people was a key part of the first one, too. > > Slavery flourished under the American flag far longer than under the Confederate; slavery was essential to the economy of the whole of the young republic. I’m not arguing at all with any of that. But the difference between the two nations was the intended direction of their founders. The United States, for all its many flaws, was founded in an effort to create greater equality. The Confederacy was founded to prevent greater equality. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221/180 "2015-06-26T07:56:03Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > People actually take PRIDE in that flag? PRIDE in their ancestors fighting to succeed over slavery? Pride? Friend, in the last few years, I have actually heard living people in the South seriously bemoan the emancipation of slaves and have heard living people state that Blacks were better off under slavery. And it wasn’t that long ago (just a couple of years, IIRC), that there was a poll in one US state showing a rather large chunk of the population is against inter-racial marriage. [/QUOTE] This isn’t going to go away until people are forced by the federal government to behave in a decent manner. I posted earlier a list of what I think the federal government should do to any state, county, or municipal entity that glorifies the traitors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/r-i-p-confederacy-and-good-riddance/723221.md?page=10)