# Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky-scrooge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2006, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790 "2006-12-12T07:05:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/41 "2006-12-12T16:14:14Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] Why not put up seven Christmas trees, and light one each night? [/QUOTE] By jove! I declare this the wittiest statement of the thread! Huzzah! ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/42 "2006-12-12T17:19:34Z")
[QUOTE=JustAnotherGeek] You’ve gotta be kidding me, right? This has to be one of the most spurious arguments I’ve ever heard. Who, other than Christians and people brought up in a christian environment, displays a “Christmas Tree?” [/QUOTE] Well, [the Japanese](http://gojapan.about.com/cs/christmasinjapan/a/chrismasinjapan.htm), apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/43 "2006-12-12T17:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] You can desecrate a cross. You can desecrate a menora. Can you desecrate a Christmas tree? [/QUOTE] Sure. I’ve got a big box of Christmas tree desecrations in my attic. ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/44 "2006-12-12T17:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=Amok] Well, [the Japanese](http://gojapan.about.com/cs/christmasinjapan/a/chrismasinjapan.htm), apparently. [/QUOTE] Ok. Didn’t know that. I’ll try to remember that, when I’m in Japan, the Christmas tree has little to do with Christmas, and more to do with adopting Western culture. Allow me to rephrase, _Who_ in America (where the OP takes place)_, other than Christians and people brought up in a christian environment, displays a “Christmas Tree?”_ My point was only that this symbol is inherently tied to the Christian religion (even if not sacred). To claim that this symbol is not religious is to deny the very meaning of the image. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/45 "2006-12-12T17:45:57Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] By jove! I declare this the wittiest statement of the thread! Huzzah! [/QUOTE] Except Hanukah, serving as a substitute for Shevuot as it did, has eight days. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/46 "2006-12-12T17:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] You can desecrate a cross. You can desecrate a menora. Can you desecrate a Christmas tree? [/QUOTE] That is an interesting question. Let’s say I saw an art object similar to “Piss Christ,” but using a Christmas tree instead of a crucifix, I would probably assume that it was a commentary on the over-commercialization of Christmas, NOT a commentary on the relgious aspects of Christmas. It’s just not a religious symbol like a cross, a nativity scene, or a menorah. I think I said this in another thread…if I celebrated Christmas without about 90% of the decorations I put up in my house, including the tree, it would still be just as meaningful religiously as it is with those decorations…they simply aren’t relevant to the meaning of the holiday. When I put up my nativity scene, I think about the nativity & what it meant. When I put up the Christmas tree, I think “goddamn it, this is the biggest pain in the ass…WHY do we do this every year?” 🙂 I like the tree when it’s up, it’s pretty and all that, but it’s pretty much just a decoration. It’s fun to see the ornaments, because I’ve collected them over the years, but that’s no different from anything one might collect…just cute objects, you know? But all that aside, we do CALL it a Christmas tree, and I personally think it’s nice when I see a public Christmas tree display that also has a menorah. Why not celebrate all the holidays? The Museum of Science and Industry has a “Christmas Around the World” type of display every year, and they get people of different national backgrounds to make ornaments for the trees (I think they have about 50 trees). One of the nations represented by a tree is Israel! I have not seen it, so I don’t know what the ornaments look like, but I thought that was kind of funny. Of course, as my husband pointed out, they have trees from many countries that don’t have Christmas trees as a tradition, and the ornaments are more themed to the culture than what a Christmas tree might actually look like. He said, “you know, like an “American” tree would have little American flags and cowboy hats on it, even though that’s not what people put on their trees here.” So, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were little Menorahs on the Israeli trees! I like the inclusiveness, though! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/47 "2006-12-12T18:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=JustAnotherGeek] Allow me to rephrase, _Who_ in America (where the OP takes place)_, other than Christians and people brought up in a christian environment, displays a “Christmas Tree?”_ [/quote] Well, you’ve had at least one atheist in this very thread say he has a Christmas tree. What, you think he’s so steeped in his Christian upbringing that he can’t give up the Christmas tree, even though he’s disavowed the rest of it? > [@](#): > > My point was only that this symbol is inherently tied to the Christian religion (even if not sacred). To claim that this symbol is not religious is to deny the very meaning of the image. Nonsense. This is the argument that (A) Christmas is inherently a Christian holiday, therefore (B) everything that has anything to do with Christmas, no matter how tangential, not matter when imported or why, becomes inherently Christian as well. X touches religion so everything that touches X touches religion through X. This simply isn’t the case. Yule logs are not inherently Christian. Neither are carols, or jingle bells, or presents, or or wreaths, or eating a big honking meal. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree) is a wiki article on Christmas trees. You will see that they have precisely zero to do with the Christian celebration of the Birth of Christ, and in fact as early as the 16th century were drawing objection as distractions from the religious celebration of Christmas. I don’t know any Christians who consider a Christmas tree to have any religious meaning whatsoever. So go ahead and “deny” its religious meaning; it doesn’t have any. In fact, some fundamentalist Christians will not have Christmas trees – or wreaths or presents or Santa, let’s call them the “No Fun Christians” – because they consider it a co-opted pagan symbol that they correctly believe has diddly-squat to do with the birth of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/48 "2006-12-12T18:24:53Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Except Hanukah, serving as a substitute for Shevuot as it did, has eight days. [/QUOTE] Well, right… I just figured he meant that on the eighth night we got to burn the whole lot of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/49 "2006-12-12T18:39:59Z")
Some folks can easily separate the secular (celebration of peace, love, joy, etc.) from the religious aspects of the holiday. Other folks not so much. So for these two groups a Christmas tree, as a symbol, has entirely different conotations. And who is to say which viewpoint is right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/50 "2006-12-12T18:44:27Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Never any decorations for Diwali, though. Funny that. Anecdotes aren’t data, of course. [/QUOTE] The simple explanation for that is that Diwali generally falls in October or early November at the latest, and thus doesn’t really coincide with holiday-decoration season in the West. The more complex explanation is that Hindus don’t make a fuss about such things, and as we all know, the squeaky wheel gets greased. Most Hindu teaching separates religion and state as a matter of course, particularly outside India. [QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The Museum of Science and Industry has a “Christmas Around the World” type of display every year, and they get people of different national backgrounds to make ornaments for the trees (I think they have about 50 trees). One of the nations represented by a tree is Israel! I have not seen it, so I don’t know what the ornaments look like, but I thought that was kind of funny. [/QUOTE] Yes, Israel, where the Christians come from, dear (in a manner of speaking). There is a significant number of Christians still there, mostly Arab. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/51 "2006-12-12T19:01:40Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] Well, right… I just figured he meant that on the eighth night we got to burn the whole lot of 'em. [/QUOTE] Plus the shamash…some strong dude will need to light a seperate tree on fire and then use that one to light the others. If you really want to follow tradition you need to let them burn all the way down each night so you’ll need (2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9) = 44 trees. A boon to the nurseries; my uncle who proudly bills himself as the founder of the Jewish Christmas Tree Growers Association will be more than happy to help I’m sure 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/52 "2006-12-12T19:02:34Z")
My OP was primarily intended to pit the Rabbi for his threatening law suit with the stated objective to show goodwill. Pure Hypocricy. I’m not a big fan of lawsuits as an expression of goodwill. As far as the airport officials are concerned I really don’t know what to think. Given the Rabbi’s action, there is now a debate as to whether Christmas trees are a Christian religious symbol detrimental to the rights of non-Christians and it is their right to remove perceived religious symbolism from a public place. After all, they are not in a position to decide that particular issue. That would have to be up to a judge. [QUOTE=JustAnotherGeek] You’ve gotta be kidding me, right? This has to be one of the most spurious arguments I’ve ever heard. Who, other than Christians and people brought up in a christian environment, displays a “Christmas Tree?” It is a symbol of the christian holiday of Christ’s Mass. Full Stop. It may have originated as something altogether different, but that does not mean that what it is viewed as today is not religious. [/quote] Well if we continue with your argument, holly is a religious symbol mistletoe is a religious symbol Christmas turkey is a religious symbol Santa Claus is a religious symbol. He is after all a Christian saint and sacred to many children. > [@](#): > > To those arguing that a “Christmas Tree” is not a religious symbol, please ask yourself: would it still be a “Christmas Tree” if it were decorated with red flowers and lit up with exactly seven candle (with a new one being lit every night of Chanukah?) Would it still be a Christmas tree if it only had lights? Yes. All it takes to make a Christmas tree is an evergreen and lights. Decorations are optional. I might add that there were specifically no Christian symbols on the airport Christmas trees. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/53 "2006-12-12T19:08:13Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] The SCOTUS certainly does not hold that, “if you put in any religious symbol, and aren’t prepared to put in all” that you are establishing. In fact, it expressly has stated in very recent cases that government _can display sacred religious icons_ as long as they are not proselytizing and as long as the display is _secular in nature_. I’m not really sure what’s more secular than a Christmas tree when it comes to a holiday symbol, maybe an easter egg, or the Easter bunny. [/quote] Right, Chrismas trees are so secular that there are no Hanukah bush discussions or issues in Jewish homes, and the home of my Islamic neighbors are full of them. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Aside from a giant Ten Commandments display within the court room itself, on display at the Supreme Court building is a statue of Moses. Well, I’ll agree that Moses is not a religious symbol. We don’t worship him, and in fact a statue of Moses would probably be prohibited - no graven images, remember. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/54 "2006-12-12T19:21:47Z")
My understanding of how this went down is this…a request is made in October to include a menorah in the holiday display. No response from SeaTac. So, the Rabbi says either respond to my request or I will file a lawsuit requiring you to respond. In true knee-jerk reaction, SeaTac removes all the holiday decorations. Both Christmas trees and menorahs have been determined by SCOTUS to be secular for the purpose of public displays of the winter holidays. So SeaTac freaked out for no good reason and their official reason of not putting up religious symbols isn’t even backed up by law because the menorah can be considered secular. Idiots. I’d just as soon they quit putting up holiday decorations in all government buildings, including mine. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/55 "2006-12-12T19:34:44Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Yes, Israel, where the Christians come from, dear (in a manner of speaking). There is a significant number of Christians still there, mostly Arab. [/QUOTE] Wow…that was unnecessarily condscending. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/56 "2006-12-12T19:35:30Z")
[QUOTE=stretch] \*\*Both Christmas trees and menorahs have been determined by SCOTUS to be secular for the purpose of public displays of the winter holidays. \*\* [/QUOTE] I wanted to see how long the fighting would go on before somebody brought this up. (54 posts, if I didn’t miss anything). So, that about wraps that up, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/57 "2006-12-12T19:44:23Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] I wanted to see how long the fighting would go on before somebody brought this up. (54 posts, if I didn’t miss anything). So, that about wraps that up, wouldn’t you say? [/QUOTE] A cite would be nice to back me up, but do I need to remind you that SCOTUS doesn’t speak for all of us ? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/58 "2006-12-12T19:44:36Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Wow…that was unnecessarily condscending. [/QUOTE] I apologise if it came across that way. It was meant to be only slightly snarky, rather than insulting. Sorry. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/59 "2006-12-12T19:45:17Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Right, Chrismas trees are so secular that there are no Hanukah bush discussions or issues in Jewish homes, and the home of my Islamic neighbors are full of them. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I think the problem we are having is that cultural tradtions and religious traditions are getting confused here. Trees are a cultural tradtion for SOME Christians, and that tradition, since it is kind of fun, has spread to many Christians and some non-Christians. I have a friend whose in-laws are from India, and are religious Hindus. They have a Christmas tree because they see it as an American tradition, which in a sense, it IS, much more so than a religious thing. I’m sure there are plenty of Christians around the world who don’t give a thought in the world to Christmas trees when this time of year comes around…it’s not part of the religion at large, and it’s not part of their culture, so why would they? To me, it’s like the traditional Christmas or Christmas Eve dinner. In my husband’s family’s culture, there is a very specific menu that is served on Christmas Eve. It wouldn’t seem like Christmas without it. But that doesn’t make it a religious tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790/60 "2006-12-12T19:47:21Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I apologise if it came across that way. It was meant to be only slightly snarky, rather than insulting. Sorry. :smack: [/QUOTE] That’s ok…I was just trying to be lighthearted in MY post, so I guess I assumed that folks would know that I know there are Christians in Israel. Five bucks says there are little Israeli flags with the Star of David on that Christmas tree, though! I would love to go see it this year to confirm that, but I don’t think I’ll have time. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rabbi-elazar-bogomilsky-scrooge/383790.md?page=4)