# Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236 "2012-05-27T12:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/181 "2012-05-31T11:34:22Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Not necessarily. The Chinese owe their superior intelligence to the imperial exam system. This lasted for about two thousand years. Men who could pass the exam were admitted to the scholar gentry. They were given generous incomes, and expected to have several wives and many children. Those children inherited their superior intelligence. Even if that were true, which I highly doubt, that would only make the ethnic Chinese smarter. Although probably only the Mandchus, since they were the ruling class - the majority of Chinese were still lowly peasants even at the heights of Celestial Bureaucracy. But you assert that ALL “Orientals” are smarter. Wait, no, only those with epicanthic folds for some reason - did they select for that in the exams back at the Jade Palace, too ? In any event, you can’t point to social policies in China as a background reason for this supposedly pan-Asian genetic trait. Still awaiting you addressing the Ottoman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/182 "2012-05-31T12:59:56Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Beginning with Greece the Europeans learned from the older civilizations in the Near East. So why does it matter whether they developed them themselves, then (as the Mayans and indeed Africans, in fact, did) - they just parasitized off others’ work, is what you’re saying. Now, I’ll admit tapeworms and leeches are highly specialized and wonders of biological engineering, no doubt, but hardly the _pinnacle_ of evolution, are they? > [@](#): > > Then they advanced beyond those older civilizations. This was particularly true during the Renaissance when European civilization became the most advanced in the world. I think someone needs to go back and learn about the contribution of _contemporary_ Middle Eastern and North African culture to the Renaissance. Let’s just say that was a lot more important than Greek contributions, no matter what the Italians themselves said. Leeches and tapeworms, once again… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/183 "2012-05-31T13:04:16Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Not necessarily. The Chinese owe their superior intelligence to the imperial exam system. This lasted for about two thousand years. Men who could pass the exam were admitted to the scholar gentry. They were given generous incomes, and expected to have several wives and many children. Those children inherited their superior intelligence. The Imperial Exam system had fuck-all to do with IQ as measured in IQ tests - and little to do with any functional intelligence except in so far as memory is a component of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/184 "2012-05-31T13:10:09Z")
Yeah it’s not like everyone in the Far East was given the Imperial Exam, and those that didn’t pass were sterilized. If that were the case, then I would expect Imperial Exam-taking to be genetically improved over 80 generation. Not necessarily general intelligence, mind you. Just the sort of intelligence that will let you pass an Imperial Exam (which was IIRC mostly rote memorization with only a modicum of creativity and analysis.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/185 "2012-05-31T13:11:11Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Lactose tolerance and blue eyes owe their existence to single mutations that happened once each in Europe less than ten thousand years. Bullshit. While the lactase persistence mutation is a single-gene mutation, it’s happened numerous times in human history, in various places. I agree it can spread rapidly (3000 years in some Sub-saharan African groups) but whether that’s genetic drift or selective pressure is uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/186 "2012-05-31T13:15:14Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yeah it’s not like everyone in the Far East was given the Imperial Exam, and those that didn’t pass were sterilized. If that were the case, then I would expect Imperial Exam-taking to be genetically improved over 80 generation. Not necessarily general intelligence, mind you. Just the sort of intelligence that will let you pass an Imperial Exam (which was IIRC mostly rote memorization with only a modicum of creativity and analysis.) I also highly doubt the exam was unaltered in those millennia. Also, it no way was 2000 years - more like 1400 years. And for the first 400, it wasn’t as pervasive as it became. It only expanded under the late-period Song. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/187 "2012-05-31T13:16:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Now, I’ll admit tapeworms and leeches are highly specialized and wonders of biological engineering, no doubt, but hardly the _pinnacle_ of evolution, are they? Well, just in case I, for one, welcome our new leech overlords. Also agreed on the lack of correlation between the Imperial test and IQ, reasoning, spatial reasoning etc… - in fact I was coming back to post just that. Unless I’m mistaken, it consisted mostly in regurgitating Confucian texts memorized by rote (or was it Lao Tzu? Man, my Chinese history is such crap :/). It doesn’t take a brain the size of a planet to remember large amounts of text, especially if you’re not particularly expected to \*understand \*any of it. Keanu Reeves does that for a living. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/188 "2012-05-31T13:27:02Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The Japanese and the Chinese devoted their intelligence to other endeavors. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/189 "2012-05-31T13:53:06Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Two thousand years has 80 generations. Any animal breeder knows that much can be achieved with 80 generations. It took less time for Ashkenazi Jews to develop an even higher average IQ of 112. > > Lactose tolerance and blue eyes owe their existence to single mutations that happened once each in Europe less than ten thousand years. Now most European whites share the gene for lactose tolerance. A large minority share the gene for blue eyes. In order: Animal breeders are working with population sizes that are many orders of magnitude smaller than the human population of China at the time. Small population size = much faster rate of evolution. Artificial breeders are also able to impose selective pressure on their animals that is vastly stronger than anything found in natural selection. Jews’ IQ: as the entire topic of debate here is whether or not there is a genetic basis to IQ, this cannot be used as supporting evidence, as it has not been shown to be the case. Lactose intolerance: has already been dealt with, also, see below. Blue eyes: even if we accept your numbers as true, which we will because I don’t care enough to research it, ten thousand years is a LOT different from two thousand years. I spent over two years working as a grad student in a population genetics/evolution lab. I’m not saying I’m the world’s greatest expert on the topic, but I know enough to be able to call you out when you start talking bullshit and to back up what I say. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/190 "2012-05-31T13:59:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Such as? Philosophy and art. Currently they prove their biological superiority by performing well in mathematics and science in American universities. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/191 "2012-05-31T14:06:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bullshit. While the lactase persistence mutation is a single-gene mutation, it’s happened numerous times in human history, in various places. I agree it can spread rapidly (3000 years in some Sub-saharan African groups) but whether that’s genetic drift or selective pressure is uncertain. Several genes enable lactose tolerance. The most common is the 13910-Y allele. It is found among Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/192 "2012-05-31T14:07:39Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yeah it’s not like everyone in the Far East was given the Imperial Exam, and those that didn’t pass were sterilized. If that were the case, then I would expect Imperial Exam-taking to be genetically improved over 80 generation. Not necessarily general intelligence, mind you. Just the sort of intelligence that will let you pass an Imperial Exam (which was IIRC mostly rote memorization with only a modicum of creativity and analysis.) Even if the exam was dependent on the ability to memorize nonsense syllables those with the most intelligence would have performed betters. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/193 "2012-05-31T14:22:49Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Even if the exam was dependent on the ability to memorize nonsense syllables those with the most intelligence would have performed betters. Cite ? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/194 "2012-05-31T14:39:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Cite ? 19 Ss were required to associate the first ten numbers in a random order, with the first ten letters of the alphabet. The performances of individual Ss revealed that various methods were employed by different Ss. Different methods were susceptible to different kinds of errors: logical or perseverative. Curves of error in rational learning were found to be similar to other error curves of learning, except that in the former there was an absence of sudden drops on the curve. The Ss could be classified into three types: (1) cold and rational (2) extremely self-conscious and (3) prone to rough trial-and-error procedures. **A very high correlation was obtained between performance in rational learning and estimated general intelligence**. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved) > **[APA PsycNet](https://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1926-03410-001)** ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/195 "2012-05-31T14:40:56Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Lactose tolerance and blue eyes owe their existence to single mutations that happened once each in Europe less than ten thousand years. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Several genes enable lactose tolerance. The most common is the 13910-Y allele. It is found among Europeans. :smack: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > [APA PsycNet](http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1926-03410-001) Which proves…what? That intelligence is correlated with memory? No surprise. But that was NOT the citation requested. The requested citation was to show that increased intelligence was correlated with test results for the Imperial Exam, for which, granted, memorization forms a large component but for which you have NOT yet shown correlation to functional intelligence nor evolution of IQ (or even just general intelligence). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/196 "2012-05-31T14:51:32Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/197 "2012-05-31T15:06:34Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > :smack: > > Which proves…what? That intelligence is correlated with memory? No surprise. But that was NOT the citation requested. > > The requested citation was to show that increased intelligence was correlated with test results for the Imperial Exam, for which, granted, memorization forms a large component but for which you have NOT yet shown correlation to functional intelligence nor evolution of IQ (or even just general intelligence). Those who passed the imperial exams died before IQ testing was introduced. We cannot test them. Nevertheless, it should be obvious that those who passed were more intelligent than those who failed. The exams did not simply require one to repeat long passages from the classics. One was expected to use one’s knowledge creatively. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/198 "2012-05-31T15:16:09Z")
Still haven’t addressed the problem of how you get from Chinese-specific social policies to pan-Asian genetic traits. It seems like an important gap. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/199 "2012-05-31T15:17:44Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Jews’ IQ: as the entire topic of debate here is whether or not there is a genetic basis to IQ, this cannot be used as supporting evidence, as it has not been shown to be the case. Are you claiming that Ashkenazic Jews do not have an average IQ of 112? It is common knowledge that they do. They have won one fifth of Nobel Prizes. In The Jews among the Greeks and Romans: a Diasporan Source Book Margaret H. Williams demonstrated that during the Roman Empire Jews were not considered to be of superior intelligence. The superiority of the Ashkenazim evolved quickly. For about one thousand years Jews in Europe were forbidden to own land. Most trades were closed to them. However, money lending was open to them because of Christian restrictions against usury. Success in finance and business requires superior intelligence. Also, the periodic programs favored Jews who were rich and resourceful enough to survive. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/200 "2012-05-31T15:20:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Still haven’t addressed the problem of how you get from Chinese-specific social policies to pan-Asian genetic traits. It seems like an important gap. I cannot explain the superior intelligence of the Koreans and Japanese, but I can document it. [http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm](http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm) > **[Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study - Site...](https://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm)** > > Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study My explanation for the superior intelligence of the Chinese is the imperial exam system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=11)