# Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236 "2012-05-27T12:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/261 "2012-06-01T10:58:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You, and **NDD** , seem to be under the impression that if the data supporting a thesis can be proven correct (or at least not entirely spurious), then the claims supported by this data must be correct as well. Prove the data, and it proves the theory ! > > Everyone here understands why this is not the case, but for your sake: “Penguins are black and white, old movies are black and white, therefore old movies are penguins” is an example of retarded conclusion derived from legit facts. It is an unfounded claim, no matter how much evidence I can line up that penguins and old movies are black and white. I am trying to untangle your twisted thinking. How does Rushton’s data not support his claims? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/262 "2012-06-01T11:14:31Z")
I’m not saying they don’t. I honestly haven’t heard of the man. That’s not my point. That’s…that’s the opposite of the point, goddamit ! Just because his data supports his claims doesn’t mean his claims are correct, sound or valid. Got that ? Remember: old movies are not penguins. But you, on the other hand, have repeatedly responded to criticism of your conclusions, far-fetched theories, leaps of logic and complete ass-pulls by re-iterating your ground facts over and over, _ad nauseam_. As if the latter was a refutation of the former. So did **brazil84** just now, when he responded to **tomndebb** ’s claim that the scientific community had torn Rushton’s theories (such as his purported going from average penis size to irresponsibility, one would guess absolutely at random) to shreds by trying to prove his empirical data is still used, or the methodology to obtain it undisputed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/263 "2012-06-01T11:26:03Z")
BTW, because I missed your post earlier: thanks, **Damuri Ashaji** , for your precisions and clarifications re: the Imperial exam. Fascinating stuff - I should really get to know Chinese history better. Would you have any recommendations for accessible books on the subject ? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/264 "2012-06-01T11:33:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > You are simply wrong. In a large population there are more mutations, consequently there are more beneficial mutations. These spread to more organisms. You clearly know nothing about population genetics. This is the equivalent of saying “the sky is obviously yellow, not blue!” This is one of the most fundamental and obvious underlying facts in the field. You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Are you arguing that the average IQ for an Ashkenazi Jew is not 112? As I have repeatedly said, I am arguing that it is an irrelevant and fallacious argument. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Blue eyes are caused by one allele. This one allele spread through Europe and parts of northern Africa and the Near East in about six thousand years. High and low intelligence is caused by many alleles. If one favorable allele can spread so quickly, the many alleles that make up superior can collectively spread much faster. Good hell. This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen. Oh, and yet again, I note that you’re completely ignoring the vast majority of the arguments I have posted. Not surprising, actually. If these feeble attempts are the best you can do… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/265 "2012-06-01T11:38:19Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Good hell. This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen. Man, I had missed that beauty. Good _Lord_. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/266 "2012-06-01T11:38:42Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > You are simply wrong. In a large population there are more mutations, consequently there are more beneficial mutations. These spread to more organisms. I suppose failure to understand the concept of “inertia”, and that large things have more of it than small things, makes it easier to cling to a notion (perception necessarily indicates reality) that implies that the planets revolved around the Earth in 1412 and revolve around the Sun in 2012. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Blue eyes are caused by one allele. This one allele spread through Europe and parts of northern Africa and the Near East in about six thousand years. High and low intelligence is caused by many alleles. If one favorable allele can spread so quickly, the many alleles that make up superior can collectively spread much faster. Kind of like the way the United States Army can get halfway around the world faster than a personal traveling alone can. Oh, wait, it doesn’t work that way at all… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/267 "2012-06-01T13:13:24Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > You clearly know nothing about population genetics. This is the equivalent of saying “the sky is obviously yellow, not blue!” This is one of the most fundamental and obvious underlying facts in the field. You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. > > As I have repeatedly said, I am arguing that it is an irrelevant and fallacious argument. > > Good hell. This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen. > > Oh, and yet again, I note that you’re completely ignoring the vast majority of the arguments I have posted. Not surprising, actually. If these feeble attempts are the best you can do… I don’t have time to read all the insults directed against me. If this is all you can do, I did not miss anything. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/268 "2012-06-01T13:27:26Z")
If I am mistaken in my assertion that a large gene pool evolves faster than a small gene pool, why have animals in isolated areas of the world like Australia evolved less rapidly than in places like Asia? Placental mammals never reached Australia until the ancestors of the Aborigines did about 50,000 years ago, and the later dingos did about 5,000 years ago. The entry of modern humans caused mass extinctions. Later the dingos caused the extinction of the marsupial wolf. The marsupial wolf occupied the same ecological niche as the dingo, and could not compete with the dingo. Although the marsupial wolf was very distantly related to the placental wolf, it looked surprisingly wolf like, as you can see from this video: > **[People Search - Find People Fast and Free | Radaris](https://radaris.com/)** > > ⚡ Fast people search by 👥 name, 📞 phone, or 🏠 address on Radaris. Search people directory and learn about people - background check, phone, address, email, reverse phone lookup, people's reviews, and public records. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/269 "2012-06-01T14:01:44Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I don’t have time to read all the insults directed against me. If this is all you can do, I did not miss anything. Well, your time might be precious but if you’re going to be starting threads about genetics I would strenuously advise you to take the time and pick up _Baby’s First Book On Evolution_ one of these days. The fundamental errors you’re making in the statements \*\*Smeghead \*\*quoted would make a high-schooler roll their eyes in disbelief, nevermind a biologist like his self. If you seriously do not see why “one solitary gene spreads this fast, therefore an entire collection of interconnected genes should spread exponentially faster” is such a wall-bonkingly idiotic assertion… Well, actually, do keep saying it every time you open one of these threads. It’ll let people know exactly how much they should pay attention to what else you have to say. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/270 "2012-06-01T14:18:04Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If I am mistaken in my assertion that a large gene pool evolves faster than a small gene pool, why have animals in isolated areas of the world like Australia evolved less rapidly than in places like Asia? They haven’t. They’ve, on average, evolved at pretty much the same rate. They evolved _differently_, is all. Placentals aren’t any faster evolved than marsupials, and saying so displays a blistering ignorance of evolution. Also, Galapagos finches, for fuck’s sake. > [@](#): > > Placental mammals never reached Australia until the ancestors of the Aborigines did about 50,000 years ago, and the later dingos did about 5,000 years ago. The entry of modern humans caused mass extinctions. …the same thing happened everywhere modern humans went - North America, for one…yet that place teamed with placentals. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/271 "2012-06-01T14:25:19Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If I am mistaken in my assertion that a large gene pool evolves faster than a small gene pool, why have animals in isolated areas of the world like Australia evolved less rapidly than in places like Asia? Cite? No, really. The notion of “evolution speed” is a tenuous one itself (so, please define the way you’re using it - generation turnaround? chromosomal changes (how are you measuring this)? number of distinct species?). Also, you’ve given no evidence that this is the case in Australia. It seems you think it’s self-evident, when it’s certainly not. Also, this is a digression from the main point. You still trying to use a single (mistaken) data point (Australia) to prove your larger point about evolution in small populations. How about showing it in general instead of using one-off examples? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/272 "2012-06-01T14:27:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They haven’t. They’ve, on average, evolved at pretty much the same rate. They evolved _differently_, is all. Placentals aren’t any faster evolved than marsupials, and saying so displays a blistering ignorance of evolution. Bu-bu-but the placental wolf caused the extinction of the marsupial wolf so that means he’s more evolved and thus intrinsically superior ! :smack: (we need an “I am saying a really stupid thing” smiley) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/273 "2012-06-01T15:13:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Bu-bu-but the placental wolf caused the extinction of the marsupial wolf so that means he’s more evolved and thus intrinsically superior By that logic the Nazis were intrinsically superior to Ashkenazim in Europe …:eek: but that’s not possible - Ashkenazim are the most superior humans ever:confused:! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/274 "2012-06-01T15:19:54Z")
Well, not superior, just, ya know, better. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/275 "2012-06-01T17:10:19Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The argument in The 10,000 Year Explosion is that urban societies breed for superior intelligence because men who have the intelligence to become merchants, financiers, government officials, artists, and so on live better lives than laborers, and have more children who survive and reproduce. [this is demonstrably false](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic-economic_paradox). the more success people have, the fewer children they tend to have (disregarding a terribly small amount of, say, royals). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/276 "2012-06-01T17:18:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By that logic the Nazis were intrinsically superior to Ashkenazim in Europe …:eek: but that’s not possible - Ashkenazim are the most superior humans ever:confused:! Um, excuse me ? You are very much mistaken, sir. Do you see any Nazis around ? There you go. Clearly the Jew gene is more evolved than the Nazi one. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/277 "2012-06-01T18:32:13Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If I am mistaken in my assertion that a large gene pool evolves faster than a small gene pool, why have animals in isolated areas of the world like Australia evolved less rapidly than in places like Asia? > > Placental mammals never reached Australia until the ancestors of the Aborigines did about 50,000 years ago, and the later dingos did about 5,000 years ago. The entry of modern humans caused mass extinctions. Later the dingos caused the extinction of the marsupial wolf. The marsupial wolf occupied the same ecological niche as the dingo, and could not compete with the dingo. > > Although the marsupial wolf was very distantly related to the placental wolf, it looked surprisingly wolf like, as you can see from this video: > > [http://www.videosurf.com/video/ben-the-last-captive-thylacine-76535528](http://www.videosurf.com/video/ben-the-last-captive-thylacine-76535528) I’m genuinely unclear as to how you think that these facts you mention lead to your conclusion. You seem to be suffering under the misapprehension that because marsupials never evolved into placentals that they’re somehow “behind” or “slower” at evolving. There is, of course, no end goal in evolution, and modern marsupials and modern placentals are equally evolved, despite the fact that the marsupial lifestyle arose first. Modern Australian marsupials are just as evolved as the placentals found elsewhere - they just went in a different direction. The fact that one species was driven to extinction by another species (and, for the record, the reality was far more complicated than that) does not allow us to draw grand conclusions about speeds of evolution… Actually, I’m going to just stop here instead of trying to explain further. I’ve been thinking about this thread lately, and you have made it crystal clear that: (A) You know absolutely nothing about population genetics, evolution, or even genetics in general. Well, perhaps not “absolutely nothing”. I’d estimate you have a roughly high-school level of education on the subjects. Not honors high school, just general. Your understanding is shallow, riddled with mistakes, and in many places just simply wrong. This conclusion has nothing whatsoever to do with your views on race. It is based on the embarrassingly, wildly inaccurate statements you’ve made about simple, basic underlying facts upon which our understanding of evolutionary processes are based. (B) You are absolutely determined to resist the acquisition of any new facts or understanding. You have decided to completely shut your mind to any and all data that do not fit and support your preconceived prejudices. Therefore, I have decided that it is completely pointless to continue to attempt to engage with you. I may continue to correct your egregiously incorrect representations of biological science for the sake of anyone more impressionable who may be reading, but as far as argument is concerned, I wash my hands of you. You may continue to wallow in your own ignorance without molestation from me. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/278 "2012-06-01T18:38:18Z")
Also, we’re having a baby tomorrow, so I’m going to have more important stuff to do for a while than come bang my head against the brick wall of racist ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/279 "2012-06-01T19:12:44Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Also, we’re having a baby tomorrow Black, white, Jew, or Oriental? (Seriously: congratulations!) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/280 "2012-06-01T19:37:59Z")
It just occurred to me that if I were to answer Black, it might make NDD’s head explode. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=15)