# Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236 "2012-05-27T12:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/301 "2012-06-02T17:40:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering that “blacks” (sub-Saharan Africans) have a far larger gene pool than the rest of humanity combined, does this mean that they have “evolved faster”? As I pointed out they did evolve faster for a long time. That is why modern humans emerged in Africa 100,000 to 200,000 years ago rather than in the Near East or Europe. During the past 10,000 years ago whites and Orientals evolved faster because of the population pressures of agriculture and urban living. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/302 "2012-06-02T17:53:12Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > As I pointed out they did evolve faster for a long time. That is why modern humans emerged in Africa 100,000 to 200,000 years ago rather than in the Near East or Europe. During the past 10,000 years ago whites and Orientals evolved faster because of the population pressures of agriculture and urban living. That sounds like stuff you made up. Is it your own opinion, or do you actually have evidence that one race has “evolved faster” than any other? And how on earth is evolution “speed” measured? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/303 "2012-06-02T18:38:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That sounds like stuff you made up. Is it your own opinion, or do you actually have evidence that one race has “evolved faster” than any other? And how on earth is evolution “speed” measured? Evolution speed among humans can be measured by average intelligence and crime rate. Civilization breeds civilized people. I developed my ideas on this before I read The 10,000 Year Explosion, which I reviewed here. > **[The 10,000 Year Explosion - a book review](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=605733)** > > In The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending argue just that: human evolution is advancing faster and faster. Cochran and Harpending are anthropology professors at the University of... The book confirmed my beliefs, however. It explained the evolution of racial differences that are easy to document. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/304 "2012-06-02T19:42:09Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > As I pointed out they did evolve faster for a long time. That is why modern humans emerged in Africa 100,000 to 200,000 years ago rather than in the Near East or Europe. During the past 10,000 years ago whites and Orientals evolved faster because of the population pressures of agriculture and urban living. The problem is that there is zero evidence of this, it is all just a product of wishful thinking. All the pages of this argument are completely based in made up data and confirmation bias. Can you even demonstrate that we are significantly different from individuals that were alive 10,000 yeas ago? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/305 "2012-06-02T19:53:44Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The book confirmed my beliefs, however. It explained the evolution of racial differences that are easy to document. Funny that, your actions here an in the pit convinced me that the book writers had very good chapters, but as good cranks they do like to make long screeds with poison pills in it surrounded by good information. > **[Crank science is as crank science does | ScienceBlogs](https://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/04/20/crank-science-is-as-crank-scie)** > > I was sent this story about genes and IQ, and right from the beginning, my alarm bells were ringing. This is crank pseudoscience. > Gregory Cochran has always been drawn to puzzles. This one had been gnawing at him for several years: Why are European... > [@](#): > > Here’s another explanation: this isolated subgroup of Ashkenazi Jews also had a culture with a deep historical respect for scholarship, and emphasized and supported education and learning to a greater degree than the larger culture surrounding them. Their children therefore begin life with a leg-up on intellectual pursuits. We don’t need a genetic explanation for their better performance (on average) on academic tests. Note also that this does not exclude a genetic component, but now at least we’re talking about an environmental factor that favors selection for intelligence. Again, though, I haven’t seen any convincing evidence for such a thing; personally, I think our intelligence is built on a shared genetic/development core that enables a wide range of kinds and degrees of intelligence to be expressed in response to environmental conditions. > > But here’s the final confirming evidence that Cochran is a crank and a non-scientist. > > > [@](#): > > > > It would be easy to test the theory, said Steven Pinker, a Harvard cognition researcher: “See if carriers of the Ashkenazi-typical genetic mutations score higher on IQ tests than their noncarrier siblings.” > > > > ``` > > Cochran and Harpending readily acknowledge the need for such experiments. But they have no plans to do them. They say their role as theorists is to generate hypotheses that others can test. > > > > “One criticism about our paper is ‘It can’t mean anything because they didn’t do any new experiments,’ ” Cochran said. “OK, then I guess Einstein’s papers didn’t mean anything either.” > > > > ``` > > I don’t agree with Pinker that it would be easy — there’s going to be a lot of individual variation in performance, and I think it’s very hard to split the variables of culture and genetics apart in these kinds of tests. But at least he’s offering a positive approach to the problem, and that would be a good starting point. > > But Cochran isn’t interested in doing them? He’s just a theorist? That’s where he begins to sound exactly like an intelligent design creationist. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/306 "2012-06-02T20:25:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The problem is that there is zero evidence of this, it is all just a product of wishful thinking. > > All the pages of this argument are completely based in made up data and confirmation bias. > > Can you even demonstrate that we are significantly different from individuals that were alive 10,000 yeas ago? The skeletal record clearly supports the idea that there have been rapid evolutionary change in humans over the past 10,000 years. The human skeleton has become more gracile - more lightly built - although more so in some populations than others. Our jaws have shrunk, our long bones have become lighter. - Professors Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending, from The 10,000 Year Explosion, pages 94-95. Professors Cochran and Harpending also claim that 10,000 years ago average brain size was lager. This is interesting and somewhat paradoxical in light of Professor Rushton’s claim of a positive relationship between brain size and intelligence. Brains may have been shaped differently, however. Neanderthals had larger brains than modern humans. However, the parts of their brains that were larger determined reflexes and coordination. The frontal lobes, that determine conscious thought, were smaller. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/307 "2012-06-02T20:59:09Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The skeletal record clearly supports the idea that there have been rapid evolutionary change in humans over the past 10,000 years. The human skeleton has become more gracile - more lightly built - although more so in some populations than others. Our jaws have shrunk, our long bones have become lighter. > > - Professors Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending, from The 10,000 Year Explosion, pages 94-95. > > Professors Cochran and Harpending also claim that 10,000 years ago average brain size was lager. This is interesting and somewhat paradoxical in light of Professor Rushton’s claim of a positive relationship between brain size and intelligence. > > Brains may have been shaped differently, however. Neanderthals had larger brains than modern humans. However, the parts of their brains that were larger determined reflexes and coordination. The frontal lobes, that determine conscious thought, were smaller. The fact that you keep going to back to the same source proves you have no real bases in fact with this argument. People were shorter due to poorer diets and that their bones were more dense due to a higher level of physical activity. Physical activity during growth plays a huge role bone mass and bone geometry. So how about some cites that are not from these known quacks? And yet you still ignored that Nigerian Americans trounce the “more evolved” whites in level of education attainment? Maybe it is nurture and not nature that plays the biggest role? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/308 "2012-06-02T21:10:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The fact that you keep going to back to the same source proves you have no real bases in fact with this argument. > > People were shorter due to poorer diets and that their bones were more dense due to a higher level of physical activity. > > Physical activity during growth plays a huge role bone mass and bone geometry. > > So how about some cites that are not from these known quacks? > > And yet you still ignored that Nigerian Americans trounce the “more evolved” whites in education attainment? Maybe it is nurture and not nature that plays the biggest role? As pointed out before, even a biology professor calls them cranks, other scientists are not impressed also. > **[SEED Reviews The 10,000 Year Explosion](https://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/03/seed-reviews-10000-year-explosion.html)** > [@](#): > > This is a trade book, not a scientific publication. The main thesis of the book is that humans are evolving rapidly. This thesis is supported by several lines of evidence: > > - A number of just-so stories from anthropology [see Examples of Accelerated Human Evolution]. Some of them are reasonable, many aren’t. > - A paper published in Dec. 2007 claiming there are thousands of human genes being selected in various populations (Hawks et al. 2007). To the best of my knowledge this analysis has not been independently replicated in the scientific literature and the technology is not without critics. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/309 "2012-06-02T21:36:54Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And yet you still ignored that Nigerian Americans trounce the “more evolved” whites in level of education attainment? Maybe it is nurture and not nature that plays the biggest role? If you documented that assertion, I missed it. In Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations, Richard Lynn estimated the average IQ in Nigeria as 67. [http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm](http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm) The OECD/PISA Study does not even list Nigeria, although it shows that schools that outperform American schools are nearly all white or all black. > **[Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study - Site...](https://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm)** > > Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/310 "2012-06-02T21:41:47Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If you documented that assertion, I missed it. > > In Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations, Richard Lynn estimated the average IQ in Nigeria as 67. > > [http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm](http://sq.4mg.com/NationIQ.htm) > > The OECD/PISA Study does not even list Nigeria, although it shows that schools that outperform American schools are nearly all white or all black. > > [Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study - Site Selection Online Insider](http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm) It isn’t hard to find, but thanks for documenting that their home country education level is low…it helps demonstrate how wrong your claim is. [ > [@](#): > > Although they make up a tiny portion of the U.S. population, a whopping 17 percent of all Nigerians in this country held master’s degrees while 4 percent had a doctorate, according to the 2006 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau. In addition, 37 percent had bachelor’s degrees. ]([http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php)) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/311 "2012-06-02T21:51:07Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It isn’t hard to find, but thanks for documenting that their home country education level is low…it helps demonstrate how wrong your claim is. > > [URL=“[http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php](http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php)”] That is interesting, and atypical. I would like to know how Nigerian immigrants to the United States differ from the entire Nigerian population. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/312 "2012-06-02T21:59:59Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > That is interesting, and atypical. I would like to know how Nigerian immigrants to the United States differ from the entire Nigerian population. Access to better education due to being in a 1st world country. The familial emphasis on education exists in both places, which has a real scientific documented influence on education attainment. Familial/community expectations even trump socio-economic level as far as educational attainment goes. Non-parental raised children only have a correlation of ~.22 with their parents, if IQ test scores were pure inheritance that should be near .50. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/313 "2012-06-02T22:12:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As pointed out before, even a biology professor calls them cranks, other scientists are not impressed also. > > [Sandwalk: SEED Reviews The 10,000 Year Explosion](http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/03/seed-reviews-10000-year-explosion.html) It does not surprise me that a book that pushes against the constraints of political correctness will receive negative reviews. This is the review that appeared in [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) * * * Resistance to malaria. Blue eyes. Lactose tolerance. What do all of these traits have in common? Every one of them has emerged in the last 10,000 years. Scientists have long believed that the “great leap forward” that occurred some 40,000 to 50,000 years ago in Europe marked end of significant biological evolution in humans. In this stunningly original account of our evolutionary history, top scholars Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending reject this conventional wisdom and reveal that the human species has undergone a storm of genetic change much more recently. Human evolution in fact accelerated after civilization arose, they contend, and these ongoing changes have played a pivotal role in human history. They argue that biology explains the expansion of the Indo-Europeans, the European conquest of the Americas, and European Jews’ rise to intellectual prominence. In each of these cases, the key was recent genetic change: adult milk tolerance in the early Indo-Europeans that allowed for a new way of life, increased disease resistance among the Europeans settling America, and new versions of neurological genes among European Jews. Ranging across subjects as diverse as human domestication, Neanderthal hybridization, and IQ tests, Cochran and Harpending’s analysis demonstrates convincingly that human genetics have changed and can continue to change much more rapidly than scientists have previously believed. A provocative and fascinating new look at human evolution that turns conventional wisdom on its head, The 10,000 Year Explosion reveals the ongoing interplay between culture and biology in the making of the human race. [The 10000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution: Cochran, Gregory, Harpending, Henry: 9780465002214: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/The-000-Year-Explosion-Civilization/dp/0465002218) * * * This is from a review in The Wall Street Journal: In their final chapter, Messrs. Cochran and Harpending venture into recorded history by observing two interesting facts about Ashkenazi Jews (those who lived in Europe after leaving the Middle East): They are disproportionately found among intellectual high-achievers – Nobel Prize winners, world chess champions, people who score well on IQ tests – and they are victims of rare genetic diseases, like Gaucher’s and Tay-Sachs. The authors hypothesize that these two facts are connected by natural selection. Just as sickle-cell anemia results from having two copies of an allele that protects you against malaria if you have just one, perhaps each Ashkenazi disease occurs when you have two copies of an allele that brings about something useful when you have just one. That useful thing, according to Messrs. Cochran and Harpending, is higher cognitive ability. They argue that the rare diseases are unfortunate side-effects of natural selection for intelligence, which Messrs. Cochran and Harpending think happened during the Middle Ages in Europe, when Jews rarely intermarried with other Europeans. “The 10,000 Year Explosion” is important and fascinating but not without flaw. Messrs. Cochran and Harpending do not stop often enough to acknowledge and rebut the critics of their ideas. And though the authors cite historical sources and scientific articles in support of their thesis, they too often write in a speculative voice, qualifying claims with “possible,” “likely,” “might” and “probably.” This voice is inevitable in any discussion of events tens of thousands of years ago. But it leads to another problem: The authors don’t say enough about the developments in genetic science that allow them to make inferences about humanity’s distant past. Readers will wonder, for instance, exactly how it is possible to recognize ancient Neanderthal DNA in our modern genomes. Despite all this, the provocative ideas in “The 10,000 Year Explosion” must be taken seriously by anyone who wants to understand human origins and humanity’s future. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123440723977275883.html?mod=article-outset-box](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123440723977275883.html?mod=article-outset-box) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/314 "2012-06-02T22:21:22Z")
None of those reviewers you are pointing out are related experts like the Professors that I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/315 "2012-06-02T22:28:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > None of those reviewers you are pointing out are related experts like the Professors that I quoted. I’m not surprised. Didn’t he, on the previous page, tell **Smeghead** (whom, IIRC, is a trained scientist) to his face that his entire training and understanding of biology was wrong, when **NDD** himself does NOT have any of the education or scholarship that one would expect in making such an assertion? If he did it himself, he’d allow those who agree with him to do it too. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/316 "2012-06-02T23:08:48Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The reason this is not true is that favorable mutations spread, while unfavorable mutations die out. A large gene pool will have more favorable mutations. These will spread, giving their possessors’ greater ability to survive and reproduce. > > This assumes that other conditions are equal. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Beneficial genes do not get absorbed or overwhelmed in a large gene pool; they spread because they give those who have them survival value. Utter nonsense. The world does not operate as if it were part of an X-Men script with amazing mutations leaping out and taking selected people into the future. The typical beneficial mutation will provide some small increase in a single trait. (Or a decrease in an unfacorable one, but we will stick to handling things in one direction.) That small increase will only be passed on if its carrier survives to the point of reproducing. Since each mutation is rather small in effect, it will not give its carrier superhuman powers, merely a single advantage in a single situation. Perhaps it will increase the carrier’s speed by 1%. Perhaps it will increase the digestibility of available foods by 1%. However, in a very large pool of people, the 1% increase to person X might occur in a person who would otherwise have been only 98% as fast as most of his or her contemporaries. Or, it might increase the speed of the fastest person by 1%, but that person might mate with a person who has only 97% of the speed of the person with the mutation. The larger the pool, the more likely the mutation will be reabsorbed into the mainstream. (Remember, you are the one who reminded us that children of exceptional people tend to regress to the mean–that is how it happens.) It is much more often in smaller populations where the beneficial mutation might actually provide the individual with a special advantage that will affect future generations. (The opposite is also true: a disadvantageous mutation has a greater chance of harming a smaller population, but that is why evolution appears to move more swiftly in smaller groups–not in larger groups.) This is why we look to the Galapagos environment to examine evolution: it moves particularly swiftly among small, contained groups, not among large groups. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/317 "2012-06-02T23:10:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Access to better education due to being in a 1st world country. > > The familial emphasis on education exists in both places, which has a real scientific documented influence on education attainment. Familial/community expectations even trump socio-economic level as far as educational attainment goes. > > Non-parental raised children only have a correlation of ~.22 with their parents, if IQ test scores were pure inheritance that should be near .50. Identical twins reared apart are more similar in IQ scores than non related children raised by the same parents. I am honestly surprised that Nigerians achieve so much academically in the United States. Nigeria has a population of over 170,000,000. Very few come to the United States. I suspect that those who do come are among the most intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/318 "2012-06-02T23:18:07Z")
I’ll quote the huff post here seeing as we tossed credible sources out the window, although they are well cited. [ > [@](#): > > Drugs. According to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, among youths aged 12 to 17, the rate of current illicit drug use was 11.1 % among whites, and 9.3% among African Americans. > > In a previous year, the same survey found that white youth aged 12 to17 are more than a third more likely to have sold drugs than African American youth. > > The Monitoring the Future Survey of high school seniors shows that white students annually use cocaine at 4.6 times the rate of African Americans students, use crack cocaine at 1.5 times the rate of African Americans students, and use heroin at the same rate of African Americans students, and that white youth report annual use of marijuana at a rate 46% higher than African American youth. > > However African American youth are arrested for drug offenses at about twice the rate (African American 314 per 100,000, white 175 per 100,000) times that of whites, [8] and African American youth represent nearly half (48%) of all the youth incarcerated for a drug offense in the juvenile justice system. > > Weapons. According to the Center on Disease Control’s annual Youth Risk Behavior Survey, in 2001 whites and African Americans reported similar rates of carrying a weapon (whites 17.9%, African Americans 15.2%), and similar rates of carrying a gun (whites 5.5%, and African Americans, 6.5%). > > African American youth represent 32% of all weapons arrests, and were arrested for weapons offenses at a rate twice that of whites (69 per 100,000, versus 30 per 100,000). > > Assault. According to the Center on Disease Control’s annual Youth Risk Behavior Survey, African Americans report being in a physical fight at a similar rate (36.5%, versus 32.5% for whites), but were arrested for aggravated assault at a rate nearly three times that of whites (137 per 100,000, versus 48 per 100,000). ]([ARE Blacks A Criminal Race? Surprising Statistics | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-jones/are-blacks-a-criminal-rac_b_8398.html)) I really want documentation, that is not biased like arrest records are that “blacks” supposedly are dumber and more likely to be criminals due to IQ. Heck, I doubt you could define “black” in a scientific way. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/319 "2012-06-02T23:53:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I’ll quote the huff post here seeing as we tossed credible sources out the window, although they are well cited. > [URL=“[ARE Blacks A Criminal Race? Surprising Statistics | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-jones/are-blacks-a-criminal-rac_b_8398.html)”] > > I really want documentation, that is not biased like arrest records are that “blacks” supposedly are dumber and more likely to be criminals due to IQ. > > Heck, I doubt you could define “black” in a scientific way. Blacks are less likely to use illegal drugs than whites. They are also less likely to have alcohol problems. Blacks and whites differ most obviously by appearance. In addition they can be identified by skeletons and DNA. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/320 "2012-06-02T23:53:43Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Evolution speed among humans can be measured by average intelligence and crime rate. Civilization breeds civilized people. Your claiming that does not make it so. Evolution is not teleolgical and your Lamarckian views have long since been discredited. You claim that “Civilization breeds civilized people,” but that is like saying that food on high branches “breeds” long necks on giraffes. Your argument is part and parcell of Lynn’s phony claims. He wants to assign Nigerians an IQ of 67, yet Nigeria has a literacy rate of around 68% and the nation has a lare number of productive industries. With a (median?) IQ of 67, no country could provide enough labor to engage in anything more complex that hunter-gatherer subsistence, yet Nigeria sustained significant industry for years, with only an unemployment rate around 11%. Currently, it is about double that, due to the world’s economic downturn, but for years it maintained a workforce capable of building modern cities and factories and operating oil fields and refineries. No nation could function in that way with an IQ that low. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=17)