# Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236 "2012-05-27T12:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/361 "2012-06-04T13:31:20Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > In Italy the murder rate […snip] nice try - I was, in context, comparing Italy to the **Scandinavian** countries **you** said they have a higher IQ than. America is irrelevant to that. If IQ correlates to crime rates, economy or…anything at all, there shouldn’t be this discrepancy. Also, what’s the “National IQ” of Greece? And Turkey - the longest-civilized country in the world? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/362 "2012-06-04T13:35:35Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > These findings come from IQ and the Wealth of Nations, by Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland, and Dr. Tatu Vanhanen, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Tampere, Tampere, Finland. > > [IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) From your link: > [@](#): > > Several negative reviews of the book have been published in the scholarly literature. Susan Barnett and Wendy Williams wrote that “we see an edifice built on layer upon layer of arbitrary assumptions and selective data manipulation. The data on which the entire book is based are of questionable validity and are used in ways that cannot be justified.” They also wrote that cross country comparisons are “virtually meaningless.” > [@NDD](#): > > To the best of my knowledge no one else has made an international study of IQ differences between different countries. However, their findings correlate with international school performance, and every study comparing the IQs of blacks, whites, and Orientals. > > [Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study - Site Selection Online Insider](http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm) This is not a link to measures of IQ. Do you know what IQ is? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/363 "2012-06-04T13:36:38Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > These findings come from IQ and the Wealth of Nations, by Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland, and Dr. Tatu Vanhanen, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Tampere, Tampere, Finland. > > [IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) > [@](#): > > Central to the book’s thesis is a tabulation of what Lynn and Vanhanen believe to be the average IQs of the world’s nations. Rather than do their own IQ studies (a potentially massive project), the authors average and adjust existing studies. > > For 104 of the 185 nations, no studies were available. In those cases, the authors have used an estimated value by taking averages of the IQs of neighboring or comparable nations. For example, the authors arrived at a figure of 84 for El Salvador by averaging their calculations of 79 for Guatemala and 88 for Colombia. Including those estimated IQs, the correlation of IQ and GDP is 0.62. > > To obtain a figure for South Africa, the authors averaged IQ studies done on different ethnic groups, resulting in a figure of 72. The figures for Colombia, Peru, and Singapore were arrived at in a similar manner. > > In some cases, the IQ of a country is estimated by averaging the IQs of countries that are not actually neighbors of the country in question. For example, Kyrgyzstan’s IQ is estimated by averaging the IQs of Iran and Turkey, neither of which is close to Kyrgyzstan—China, which is a geographic neighbor, is not counted as such by Lynn and Vanhanen. This is presumably because the ethnic groups of the area speak Iranian and Turkic languages, but do not include Chinese. > [@](#): > > Several negative reviews of the book have been published in the scholarly literature. Susan Barnett and Wendy Williams wrote that “we see an edifice built on layer upon layer of arbitrary assumptions and selective data manipulation. The data on which the entire book is based are of questionable validity and are used in ways that cannot be justified.” They also wrote that cross country comparisons are “virtually meaningless.” > [@](#): > > In a book review in the Journal of Economic Literature, a journal of the American Economic Association, Thomas J. Nechyba wrote that: “(the book’s) sweeping conclusions based on relatively weak statistical evidence and dubious presumptions seem misguided at best and quite dangerous if taken seriously. It is therefore difficult to find much to recommend in this book.” > [@](#): > > Some criticisms have focused on the limited number of studies upon which the book is based. The IQ figure is based on one study in 34 nations, and two studies in 30 nations. There were actual tests for IQ in 81 nations. In 104 of the world’s nations there were no IQ studies at all and IQ was estimated based on IQ in surrounding nations.[2] The limited number of participants in some studies has also been criticized. A test of 108 9-15-year olds in Barbados, of 50 13–16-year olds in Colombia, of 104 5–17-year olds in Ecuador, of 129 6–12-year olds in Egypt, and of 48 10–14-year olds in Equatorial Guinea, all were taken as measures of national IQ. > > Denny Borsboom (2006) argues that mainstream contemporary test analysis does not reflect substantial recent developments in the field and “bears an uncanny resemblance to the psychometric state of the art as it existed in the 1950s.” For example, it argued that IQ and the Wealth of Nations, in order to show that the tests are unbiased, uses outdated methodology, if anything indicative that test bias exists. The above quotes are from the Wiki link you provided. Do they not at least give you pause? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/364 "2012-06-04T13:37:25Z")
If crime is a correlate of IQ, why do African countries (with, apparently, sub-functional “National IQs”) track behind Latin American ones in terms of violent crime? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/365 "2012-06-04T13:38:59Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > When confronted with a theory one does not want to believe in it is common to look for any discrepancy, and use that as an excuse to reject the whole thing. > > * * * > > In Africa south of the Equator the period from 500 BC until AD 1000 was first and foremost the period which saw the change to food production. Before 500 BC there may have been a little deliberate ‘vegeculture’, or intentional planting of vegetable foods, but most food was either hunted or gathered. After AD 1000, though people still hunted and gathered, most of their food came from agriculture and stock-raising, the emphasis in the depending largely on ecological factors. This transition to food production coincided, more or less, with the transition from the Stone to the Iron Age. On present evidence it would seem safe to say that before 500 BC no metal tools were in use, > [http://histories.cambridge.org/extract?id=chol9780521215923\_CHOL9780521215923A008](http://histories.cambridge.org/extract?id=chol9780521215923_CHOL9780521215923A008) > > By the times Negroes were leaving the paleolithic age whites had already built the great civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, and Greece. Funny that your definition of “Negro” changed from: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I already have, but I will do it again. The Negro race evolved in Africa. It is characterized by dark skin, thick lips, and black kinky hair. The white race evolved in the Near East and Europe. It is characterized by light skin. The eyes may be blue, or brown. The hair varies from blond to black. It may be straight, or curly. …to Africa **south of the equator** and “White” is now: **Mesopotamia** , **Egypt** , **Assyria** , **Babylonia** , **Persia** , and **Greece**? Perhaps you need to stick with one definition and “bait and switch” us. mmmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/366 "2012-06-04T13:53:36Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > When confronted with a theory one does not want to believe in it is common to look for any discrepancy, and use that as an excuse to reject the whole thing. > > * * * > > In Africa south of the Equator the period from 500 BC until AD 1000 was first and foremost the period which saw the change to food production. Before 500 BC there may have been a little deliberate ‘vegeculture’, or intentional planting of vegetable foods, but most food was either hunted or gathered. After AD 1000, though people still hunted and gathered, most of their food came from agriculture and stock-raising, the emphasis in the economy depending largely on ecological factors. This transition to food production coincided, more or less, with the transition from the Stone to the Iron Age. On present evidence it would seem safe to say that before 500 BC no metal tools were in use, > [http://histories.cambridge.org/extract?id=chol9780521215923\_CHOL9780521215923A008](http://histories.cambridge.org/extract?id=chol9780521215923_CHOL9780521215923A008) > > By the times Negroes were leaving the paleolithic age whites had already built the great civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, and Greece. It is very funny that you have so little knowledge of Africa that you think that ‘south of the equator’ means all of Africa. For the people who do not see what embarassement he has made for himself, look at a map of Africa. The south of the equator is the southernest part of Africa, and does not cover West Africa or East Africa at all. Even that the 1978 Cambridge history is now outdated by new discoveries, he has embarassed himself because he is using this to make a claim on all black africans when it only refers to those areas that were in that time mostly the pygmies and the Khoi and San. Funny too that he makes the selective claims on the crime, since some black African countries - it is mostly those that are Muslim - have very low crime rates. It is all ad hoc for him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/367 "2012-06-04T14:14:07Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > These findings come from IQ and the Wealth of Nations, by Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland, and Dr. Tatu Vanhanen, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Tampere, Tampere, Finland. > > [IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) > > To the best of my knowledge no one else has made an international study of IQ differences between different countries. However, their findings correlate with international school performance, and every study comparing the IQs of blacks, whites, and Orientals. > > [Who's No. 1? Finland, Japan and Korea, Says OECD Education Study - Site Selection Online Insider](http://siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm) Lynn had data for less than half of the countries he discussed- and the data he had for many third world countries was spotty and incredibly weak- he bases the IQs of 30 _entire countries_ based on a single IQ test each (many of which had tiny sample sizes- like 48 students age 10-14 for Equatorial Guinea), and 34 countries on 2 IQ tests each. NDD- this is _bad science_. One study, with 48 students, represents an entire country? We’re supposed to take this seriously? And then he uses that data to estimate countries’ IQs in which he has \*no data \*at all (more than half of the countries)? Come on… this is laughable stuff. Considering that most of your arguments have been based on this book, which is largely based on terrible science, and crime rates, which are the product of a historically extremely biased justice system, how are we supposed to conclude anything other than you are trying to justfiy you’re own pre-conceived prejudices? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/368 "2012-06-04T14:25:02Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > By the times Negroes were leaving the paleolithic age whites had already built the great civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, and Greece. You’ve already agreed Egyptians aren’t “white.” They’re Middle Eastern. Greeks are Southern European, and Persians are Persian. They aren’t the same race. And why do those countries have lower average IQs than Northern Europeans, if your claim is that IQ is correlated with how long someone’s been civilized? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/369 "2012-06-04T14:40:55Z")
I’m curious as to why NDD refuses to answer the question both I and Tom posed to him. He repeated insisted that Rushton was a fantastic scientist and cited his studies as proof that blacks were “mentally inferior” to whites, but when it was pointed out that according to those same studies, white men had much smaller penises than black men, NDD got all huffy and said he had no idea whether Rushton’s studies were accurate. He even embarrassed himself by claiming that such findings weren’t one of Rushton’s central claims whereas everyone familiar with the crank knows that they are central to his whole theory on the relationship between brain size and penis size. So, once again perhaps NDD can explain why he finds Rushton to be a respected scientist when the question is regarding blacks “mental inferiority” but when the question is regarding whites’ alleged physical shortcomings and their anatomical inferiorities he suddenly thinks that Rushton can’t be trusteded even though he’d previously cited Rushton’s studies. Why is that? Do Rushton’s claims unnerve you? Do you think he might be right about the physical inadequacies of white men(whom you wish to associate yourself with) or are you concerned that if people wind up dismissing Rushton’s claims regarding white people’s anatomical inferiorities that they’ll recognize that his work is bunk and he’s a fraud. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/370 "2012-06-04T15:18:10Z")
He avoids all things inconvenient. I must also correct my post because I wrote all Africa but I meant the black Africa. But he makes places white when it is convenient to his argument evenif it responds to lo logic at all like with the Maghreb which has a strong black population for thousands of years but this should mean greater crimonality by his logic. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/371 "2012-06-04T15:18:22Z")
Another thing to put to **New Deal Democrat** is whether he has heard of the Flynn Effect? This is the phenomenon of increasing IQ test scores over time – IQ tests have to be made more difficult each year, or the scoring adjusted down, to keep the average IQ at 100. The interesting thing is that the Flynn Effect is slowing in more developed countries, while continuing apace in developing countries; thus narrowing any apparent gap. A popular hypothesis is that IQ tests, as well as (or possibly even _instead of_) measuring intelligence, measure “modernity” of thought. That someone who describes and classifies the world and events in a sort of “mathematical” way will do well on IQ tests, and in the modern workplace. But it’s not the only way of thinking, and it takes time for a population’s way of thinking to shift over. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/372 "2012-06-04T15:51:08Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > A DNA test would demonstrate that he is half white, and half black. And yet **by your very own** litmus test of skin colour, kinky hair and fat lips, he’s squarely and fully black. Had your pal Rushton quizzed him at the mall re:how far he could toss his rocks, he would have jotted down the results in the “black” column. If Obama had committed a murder, he would have been added to the “black crime” statistic. So you can maybe see why the “black” label means nothing in terms of genetics, any more than those crime stats you love to quote over and over again would be any kind of genetic evidence ; even if those stats weren’t meaningless for other reasons besides (e.g. the laws themselves are skewed in the disfavour of coloured people, law enforcement even more so, and socio-economic conditions further still) What am I saying, of course you won’t see that, that would conflict with your precious narrative… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/373 "2012-06-04T15:59:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m curious as to why NDD refuses to answer the question both I and Tom posed to him. > > He repeated insisted that Rushton was a fantastic scientist and cited his studies as proof that blacks were “mentally inferior” to whites, but when it was pointed out that according to those same studies, white men had much smaller penises than black men, NDD got all huffy and said he had no idea whether Rushton’s studies were accurate. He even embarrassed himself by claiming that such findings weren’t one of Rushton’s central claims whereas everyone familiar with the crank knows that they are central to his whole theory on the relationship between brain size and penis size. > > So, once again perhaps NDD can explain why he finds Rushton to be a respected scientist when the question is regarding blacks “mental inferiority” but when the question is regarding whites’ alleged physical shortcomings and their anatomical inferiorities he suddenly thinks that Rushton can’t be trusteded even though he’d previously cited Rushton’s studies. > > Why is that? Do Rushton’s claims unnerve you? Do you think he might be right about the physical inadequacies of white men(whom you wish to associate yourself with) or are you concerned that if people wind up dismissing Rushton’s claims regarding white people’s anatomical inferiorities that they’ll recognize that his work is bunk and he’s a fraud. > > Thanks Penis size only matters if it correlates with other characteristics that do matter, such as the ability to satisfy a woman, or the tendency to abandon women one impregnates. The first characteristic is good; the second one is bad. It is not clear to me that a large penis correlates with either characteristic. What I have read on the topic leads me to suspect that male homosexuals are more attracted to men with large penises than are female heterosexuals. The Hite Report on Female Sexuality was written by Shere Hite, and published in 1976. In the appendix of the book Ms Hite included the questionnaires she distributed to large numbers of women in order to do her research. There was one question on whether women prefer penises that are long and fat, long and thin, short and fat, and short and thin. The answers to this question did not appear in the body of the book. That suggests to me that for most women this is not a salient concern. Professor Rushton does say that blacks tend to have more athletic aptitude than whites. That is a positive characteristic, and one that is obvious to any sports fan. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/374 "2012-06-04T16:16:41Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Penis size only matters if it correlates with other characteristics that do matter, such as the ability to satisfy a woman, or the tendency to abandon women one impregnates. The first characteristic is good; the second one is bad. It is not clear to me that a large penis correlates with either characteristic. What I have read on the topic leads me to suspect that male homosexuals are more attracted to men with large penises than are female heterosexuals. Hmmm… For someone who just said you don’t think Rushton’s theories on penis size hold up you just spent an awful lot of time discussing how penis size shouldn’t matter. Look, I hate to break it to you, but when women tell you “size doesn’t matter” they’re lying to you to soothe your ego. That’s right up there with “don’t worry, it happens to all men sometimes”, “it’s not a big deal”, and “things will be better next time”. Perhaps you’ve heard that “size doesn’t matter” but rest assured the woman who said theis to you just didn’t want to hurt your feelings, closed her eyes, and pretended she was with Will Smith or Denzel Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/375 "2012-06-04T16:28:31Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Professor Rushton does say that blacks tend to have more athletic aptitude than whites. That is a positive characteristic, and one that is obvious to any sports fan. Really. I’m a huge fan of football, and by your definition neither it, baseball or basketball are not dominated by blacks. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/376 "2012-06-04T16:52:38Z")
I do not understand the mens obsession with their penises and I do not with Bin Warraq teasings helps any refutations, since the contradictions of NDD in his arguments are more interesting. He makes arguments that are only picking datas here and there, and have no coherence. A crime rate that is high in a country that has people he considers black, it is confirmation of his prejudice. But a crime rate of a country that has a large population of people he should consider black like Morocco, this is not regarded or passed over in silence. We. Forget even the low crime rates of the Sahel countries. In his presentation what is white and black change in a fashion ad hoc according to what responds to his prejudices well even if it has no consistency with his other arguments. The nonsense of the genetic argument is shown in the results that someone has provided earlier that the immigrants of Nigeria in USA perform very well in academics, but this should not be if the genetics were the dominant explanation. Because the American black population has a very large input of European and American Indian which is Asian input. I also find it very strange that no discussion is made of theimpacts of young childs nutrition, since this is something that has real objectives evidences as having a very large impact on the intelligence potential as does the child diseases. These are good factual science. I can not concieve of how the honest argument can be made that it is some colour of skin that makes intelligence when there is such strong evivdences demonstrated that there are very large environment impacts and no one argiung for the race idea has made any clear definition. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/377 "2012-06-04T17:15:27Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I do not understand the mens obsession with their penises and I do not with Bin Warraq teasings helps any refutations, since the contradictions of NDD in his arguments are more interesting. > > He makes arguments that are only picking datas here and there, and have no coherence. A crime rate that is high in a country that has people he considers black, it is confirmation of his prejudice. But a crime rate of a country that has a large population of people he should consider black like Morocco, this is not regarded or passed over in silence. We. Forget even the low crime rates of the Sahel countries. In his presentation what is white and black change in a fashion ad hoc according to what responds to his prejudices well even if it has no consistency with his other arguments. Most of the Moroccan people are Berbers. The Berbers are white. * * * he prehistoric populations of North Africa are related to the wider group of Paleo-Mediterranean peoples. The Afroasiatic phylum probably originated in the mesolithic period, perhaps in the context of the Capsian culture.[15][16]. DNA analysis has found commonalities between Berber populations and those of the Sami people of Scandinavia. > **[Berbers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people)** > > Berbers, or the Berber peoples,\[a\] also known as Amazigh\[b\] or Imazighen,\[c\] are a diverse grouping of distinct ethnic groups indigenous to North Africa who predate the arrival of Arabs in the Maghreb. Their main connections are identified by their usage of Berber languages, most of them mutually unintelligible, which are part of the Afroasiatic language family. > They are indigenous to the Maghreb region of North Africa, where they live in scattered communities across parts of Morocco, Algeri... Berbers, aboriginal Caucasoid peoples of N Africa, called Imazighen in the Tamazight language. They inhabit the lands lying between the Sahara and the Mediterranean Sea and between Egypt and the Atlantic Ocean. The Berbers form a substantial part of the populations of Libya, Algeria, and Morocco. [http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0807112.html#ixzz1wqV1unC4](http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0807112.html#ixzz1wqV1unC4) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/378 "2012-06-04T17:41:05Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Most of the Moroccan people are Berbers. The Berbers are white. No Berber speak the imaghezen languages, like the Tachelhite, Tamaghzite, Tarfite, … . Like English speakers, they come in many couleurs. It will be interesting news to my Chilha cousins from Morocco that they are white although they have skin darker than the American president. It is even eassy to google images of tuareg or Draoua or chilha to know how ignorant the claim is. Sadly good information on the Maghreb and this is not found in the English. Later I will give the citations, but your argument about the Morocco is like how you treat Egypt, it has no objective basis in relationship to what you claim. Nevertheless, you have avoided the real problem, that you make claims about populations blackn but your claims have no coherence. Black countires or countries with big black minorities have higher crime. Except when it is not true. There is no doubt that Morocco has had a large black - in the American terms - population for centuries, and yet you make it white whent it suits your argumentations. Incoherence. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/379 "2012-06-04T17:51:36Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Most of the Moroccan people are Berbers. The Berbers are white. [Not according to your definition.](http://nazmiyalantiquerugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/berber-woman.jpg) Again, what race are pygmies? What race are [Papuans?](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-opNvteXFQbE/TpL5uhRop-I/AAAAAAAAA4w/NU3B0KvvQ6U/s1600/Papuan.png) What race are [these peopl](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fXpLFYBUbs4/TDwVMZLT08I/AAAAAAAACzs/CKBDwTXt_bs/s1600/orang_asli3.jpg)e? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/380 "2012-06-04T17:56:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Not according to your definition.](http://nazmiyalantiquerugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/berber-woman.jpg) Not **those** berbers…duck, weave… **those** berbers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=20)