# Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236 "2012-05-27T12:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/161 "2012-05-30T18:04:20Z")
According to the Census the rate of college graduation for Nigerian Americans was 58.6 percent. Show me any country outside of Africa that matches that, native born sure doesn’t in any “race”. The reality is that making broad claims based on small external differences amounts to squat…unless the community as a whole penalizes people based on those arbitrary traits. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/162 "2012-05-30T18:11:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > For evidence of race go to any large city, and look around. > > Agriculture entered Europe about eight thousand years ago. The Bantu only adopted it about three thousand years ago, four thousand at the most. They never developed indigenous urban civilizations with systems of writing and mathematics they developed themselves, the way the Mayans did in the New World. The Bura culture (in 1500 BC), [around modern-day Niger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_industry#Indigenous_South_of_the_Saharan_Africa), was pretty much the first culture on Earth to have an iron-smelting industry. Kush, a black sub-Saharan African kingdom, [conquered and ruled mighty Egypt for a hundred years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt). The [Haya people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haya_people)of Tanzania were the first to forge carbon steel, centuries before Europe. Nubians developed more advanced brick and quartzite buildings than Egypt. Ancient Nigerians developed some of the earliest canoes more than 8000 years ago. Using your logic, one could easily say that the “European race” is inferior in engineering innovation to Africans, since Europe was way behind on iron, steel, boats, and brick buildings. Or maybe your logic is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/163 "2012-05-30T21:30:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Then why are there so **many** of them?! The incredible sex drive of exotic Asian women more than compensates for the small Asian penis. :rolleyes: > [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well, they’re relevant to IQ because his central thesis is that racial groups use evolutionary strategies that trade off sexual prowess (mostly in the form of penis size) with intelligence. Supposedly, blacks are oversexed and dumb, asians are undersexed and smart, and whites are a happy medium. Whites have a perfect balance of intelligence and penis size that explains their success in the world today. If Asian men only had larger penii… > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Your real name is “New Deal Democrat”? That’s gotta be a tough cross to bear. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Funny thing, I don’t recall the New Deal being racially selective. (Not that there might not have been some racial differences in actually providing the benefits on-the-ground – I **know** the postwar federal subsidy of homeownesrhip loans was racially selective, and that the politics of the day might well have made a non-racist program impossible.) You know the Democrats weren’t always on board with the notion that blacks are people too, right? The late senator from West Virginia was a lifelong Democrat and once a member of the KKK. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From [the 1911 edition of the _Encyclopedia Britannica:_](http://web.archive.org/web/20050513180938/http://77.1911encyclopedia.org/N/NE/NEGRO.htm) > > Racist thinking seems to have progressed very little since then, it’s strange. > > If black children in that period were observed to appear bright until puberty and then turn stupid, I would offer a more obvious explanation: The kid has reached an age where he figures out he is living in a society that has no use for intelligent blacks and will not reward any display of intelligence on his part. I don’t know what causes this but I have noticed this as well. Children in elementary school are almost indistinguishable in mental development until JHS. The drop off in JHS seems to be more than a divergence in enthusiasm, it seems to be a drop off in ability, this was apparent at least in math. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The higher average IQs of whites of European descent and Orientals can be attributed to several thousand years of urban civilization, and several thousand more of neolithic farming. In addition, the imperial exam system bred the Chinese for superior intelligence. Men who were intelligent enough to pass the exams were given generous incomes. They had several wives, and many children who were more likely to survive and reproduce than the general population. > > These were factors that did not effect the American Indians. The 10,000 year book people keep throwing around seems to be mostly rationlaizations to try and explain away today’s disparities without admitting that racism might have anything to do with it rather than provide any sort of scientific analysis. I could just aas easily make the argument that “orientals” are smarter because they use chopsticks. Seriously, the countries you are talking about are the only ones that have a cultural history of using chopsticks so, this manual dexterity training stimulated important areas of the brain (one of man’s greatest advantages over other primates is our manual and digital dexterity). The reason Western Europeans were able to conquer ancient Asian civilizations is because the plagues selected for anti-social behaviour so where the Chinese saw gunpowder and thought “ooh we can make pretty colors” the Western Europeans thought “I bet I could turn that into a really cool weapon” With that said, its hard to argue that there is no correlation between race and IQ. But some folks want to use this to argue that blacks are poor because they are stupid and entirely discount the effects of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/164 "2012-05-30T22:21:29Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The higher average IQs of whites of European descent and Orientals can be attributed to several thousand years of urban civilization, and several thousand more of neolithic farming. > […] > These were factors that did not effect the American Indians. Native Americans didn’t have urban civilization ? Never heard of Tenochtitlan ? The ziggurath of Chichen Itza ? Iroquois longhouses ? Hopi or Navajo villages carved into fricking cliffsides ? As for farming, the East Coast natives _taught_ the first pilgrims how to farm efficiently in the New World, instead of having to revert to cannibalism in the winter. You might have dim recollections about that obscure bit of trivia - you have a national holiday about it. Besides, “negroes” certainly \*can \*boast thousands of years of civilization and neolithic farming. There were prosperous kingdoms in Africa when Europeans were still intrigued and frightful of this unnatural “house” idea, and before the founding of China as well. So, if your ridiculous claims and reasonings held any water, white people would be the dumb ones. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/165 "2012-05-30T22:34:57Z")
Yes there was metropolitan culture in the Americas. In the 13th century, Cahokia was as large as London. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/166 "2012-05-31T00:02:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > As for farming, the East Coast natives _taught_ the first pilgrims how to farm efficiently in the New World, instead of having to revert to cannibalism in the winter. You might have dim recollections about that obscure bit of trivia - you have a national holiday about it. Nah, we stopped celebrating Cannibalism Day in 1965. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/167 "2012-05-31T00:05:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If Asian men only had larger penii… Nitpick: “Penes.” Or, “penises.” ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/168 "2012-05-31T04:11:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nitpick: “Penes.” Or, “penises.” Someone with more wit than me will have a fun time with this one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/169 "2012-05-31T05:43:31Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Someone with more wit than me will have a fun time with this one. Remember what we’re talking about. You don’t need much wit to have a fun time with it. **Monkeys** can do that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/170 "2012-05-31T07:42:31Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If you mean Egyptians I did not > [@](#): > > The evidence from Egyptians mummies and Egyptian art clearly demonstrates that the ancient Egyptians were Caucasians. Bullshit > [@](#): > > If you mean the Bantu, that is not true at all. There is more to Africa than Bantu (which is NOT a synonym for Black) - but it is true of the Bantu, as well. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/171 "2012-05-31T07:44:27Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > They never developed indigenous urban civilizations with systems of writing and mathematics they developed themselves, the way the Mayans did in the New World. Neither did Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/172 "2012-05-31T08:06:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Neither did Europeans. Yeh, but . . . the Phoenicians and the Babylonians and the Egyptians were Caucasians . . . or something . . . ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/173 "2012-05-31T09:58:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Neither did Europeans. Beginning with Greece the Europeans learned from the older civilizations in the Near East. Then they advanced beyond those older civilizations. This was particularly true during the Renaissance when European civilization became the most advanced in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/174 "2012-05-31T10:13:47Z")
And this proves… what exactly ? That Europeans have excellent intellectual property theft genes ? Note that during the same Renaissance period, the Ottoman Empire stagnated completely before collapsing under its own weight. Yet the Ottoman Turks, Persians and Arabs are Caucasians by your rules (hey, you can’t claim Ancient Egypt without having 18th century Egypt on your scoreboard. Or 21st century Egypt, for that matter). They should have been super awesome like all proud White People, shouldn’t they ? Unless you count the Ottoman Turks as “orientals” since the Seljuks were horse nomads displaced from the steppes of central Asia. But of course, that would only mean they should have been even more smarterer and industrious, doesn’t it ? Again, your racial theories, your rules. What gives ? It’s almost as if ethnicity had nothing whatsoever to do with any of those socio-cultural developments. One cannot hide one’s shock and consternation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/175 "2012-05-31T10:20:09Z")
(Hell, for that matter since Orientals are genetically much smarter, shouldn’t Japan have greeted Perry’s black ships with rail gun barrages or something ?) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/176 "2012-05-31T10:34:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (Hell, for that matter since Orientals are genetically much smarter, shouldn’t Japan have greeted Perry’s black ships with rail gun barrages or something ?) Not necessarily. The Chinese owe their superior intelligence to the imperial exam system. This lasted for about two thousand years. Men who could pass the exam were admitted to the scholar gentry. They were given generous incomes, and expected to have several wives and many children. Those children inherited their superior intelligence. Nevertheless, the exams were not based on science and technology, but on Confucian classics written before the time of Christ. For at least a generation the Japanese have been able to build automobiles and consumer electronics that were better than those designed and built in the United States. Now the Chinese are developing the ability to build many consumer items as good as comparable items built in the United States, but cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/177 "2012-05-31T10:50:25Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Not necessarily. The Chinese owe their superior intelligence to the imperial exam system. This lasted for about two thousand years. Men who could pass the exam were admitted to the scholar gentry. They were given generous incomes, and expected to have several wives and many children. Those children inherited their superior intelligence. > > Nevertheless, the exams were not based on science and technology, but on Confucian classics written before the time of Christ. So you are saying that while the Chinese are smart with respect to philosophy, they are stupid when it comes to science. Because if that isn’t what you are saying you haven’t addressed the question at all. Are the Japanese genetically more intelligent then Western Europeans? If they are smarter then why did they lag so far behind western Europeans technologically? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/178 "2012-05-31T11:09:45Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Not necessarily. The Chinese owe their superior intelligence to the imperial exam system. This lasted for about two thousand years. Men who could pass the exam were admitted to the scholar gentry. They were given generous incomes, and expected to have several wives and many children. Those children inherited their superior intelligence. You do realize that two thousand years is far FAR too short a time period for any sort of selective pressure to have any kind of effect on a large human population, right? Making this argument complete bullshit. Sorry - try again. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/179 "2012-05-31T11:20:17Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > You do realize that two thousand years is far FAR too short a time period for any sort of selective pressure to have any kind of effect on a large human population, right? Making this argument complete bullshit. > > Sorry - try again. Two thousand years has 80 generations. Any animal breeder knows that much can be achieved with 80 generations. It took less time for Ashkenazi Jews to develop an even higher average IQ of 112. Lactose tolerance and blue eyes owe their existence to single mutations that happened once each in Europe less than ten thousand years. Now most European whites share the gene for lactose tolerance. A large minority share the gene for blue eyes. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236/180 "2012-05-31T11:22:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So you are saying that while the Chinese are smart with respect to philosophy, they are stupid when it comes to science. > > Because if that isn’t what you are saying you haven’t addressed the question at all. > > Are the Japanese genetically more intelligent then Western Europeans? If they are smarter then why did they lag so far behind western Europeans technologically? The Japanese and the Chinese devoted their intelligence to other endeavors. Nevertheless, they currently outperform whites in science and mathematics in American universities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-differences-in-average-iq-are-largely-genetic/623236.md?page=10)