# "Race doesn't exist" and affirmative action: Can't have cake and eat it too **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466 "2016-07-21T03:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/1 "2016-07-21T03:09:38Z")
In recent years, there’s been a trend among some to claim that “Race doesn’t exist” or “Race is a social construct”. (One can do searches on Google about those topics.) Now - ignoring, for a moment, the fact that there are indeed clear differences in appearance between most white people, most black people, most Asians, etc. - this brings us to the topic of race-based affirmative action. The folks who promote such arguments can’t have their cake and eat it, too. You can’t claim one moment that race doesn’t exist, but then, the next moment, demand race-based affirmative action for minorities. If there is no such thing as race, then how do we give favorable academic admissions on the basis of race? And on another related note: If there is no such thing as race, then what about movements such as “black lives matter?” Are they meaningless? What about “white privilege?” Does it still exist? Are we going to say, “People of dark skin color are more likely to be targeted by the police, but let’s not call them people of a particular race?” Then that’s just a long-winded way of saying the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/2 "2016-07-21T03:24:14Z")
It helps if you understand the claim that’s actually being made, which is that race _as a genetic construct_ does not exist. Race _as a social construct_ does, and it is the inequities in that social construct that AA was designed to counteract. Also, this isn’t a remotely new idea. [Here’s an article from 1998](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php) describing why race isn’t a scientifically valid concept, and also explaining the difference between race as a scientific concept, and race as a social concept. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/3 "2016-07-21T03:25:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In recent years, there’s been a trend among some to claim that “Race doesn’t exist” or “Race is a social construct”. Your first sentence acknowledges that the argument that race doesn’t exist generally means that “race is a social construct.” Yet you don’t reference that point in the rest of your OP, even though it pretty well answers your question. Did you forget? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/4 "2016-07-21T03:29:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In recent years, there’s been a trend among some to claim that “Race doesn’t exist” or “Race is a social construct”. […] > > You can’t claim one moment that race doesn’t exist, but then, the next moment, demand race-based affirmative action for minorities. If there is no such thing as race, then how do we give favorable academic admissions on the basis of race? > > And on another related note: If there is no such thing as race, then what about movements such as “black lives matter?” Are they meaningless? What about “white privilege?” Does it still exist? Are we going to say, “People of dark skin color are more likely to be targeted by the police, but let’s not call them people of a particular race?” Then that’s just a long-winded way of saying the same thing. 😕 You seem to be confused about what’s actually meant by statements like “Race is a social construct”. (ETA: as others have already noted.) They don’t mean that racial distinctions, categories, discrimination, prejudices, etc., don’t exist in society. They simply mean that race doesn’t exist as a _biological_ classification of human beings. For example, there are plenty of people who self-identify as black who actually have a higher proportion of European ancestry than some people who self-identify as white. So **racial categories aren’t a reliable guide to genetic heritage**. Just because something is socially constructed doesn’t mean it isn’t real. Religious affiliation, for example, is socially constructed rather than being biologically innate (for most people, at least, leaving aside the subset of religious identities that are also to some extent ethnic identities). Yet there are zillions of examples of discrimination, prejudice, etc., based on religious affiliation. Short answer: **No, just because racial categories are socially constructed rather than biologically innate does not mean that racial discrimination isn’t real, or that people who complain about racial discrimination are somehow trying to “have their cake and eat it too”.** ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/5 "2016-07-21T03:33:07Z")
I don’t understand your question. Why would one not have a social instrument (affirmative action) to address problems created by a social construct? This is a surprising attempt at a political “gotcha” that I associate with other posters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/6 "2016-07-21T12:05:22Z")
Race is a social construct, not a biological or genetic one. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist – government is a social construct, and it exists; law is a social construct, and it exists; etc. So there is no hypocrisy or contradiction here, you just don’t understand the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/7 "2016-07-21T12:11:18Z")
“I find that when I equivocate like a motherfuck, arguments stop making sense to me. What’s wrong with \*them \*?!” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/8 "2016-07-21T12:26:13Z")
I’ve never seen an OP that so immediately proved itself wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/9 "2016-07-21T13:46:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve never seen an OP that so immediately proved itself wrong. You overlook the possibility that that OP has found a hidden flaw in the AA argument that no one else has found in 50 years. I mean, it’s possible… ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/10 "2016-07-21T15:09:50Z")
Witchcraft is not real, but the claim that someone is a witch has cost people their lives. > **[Salem witch trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials)** > > The Salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft in colonial Massachusetts between February 1692 and May 1693. More than 200 people were accused. Thirty people were found guilty, 19 of whom were executed by hanging (14 women and five men). One other man, Giles Corey, was pressed to death after refusing to enter a plea, and at least five people died in jail. > Arrests were made in numerous towns beyond Salem and Salem Village (known today as Danve... Race is similar, the claim of causality is false but the unfortunate effects of the false concept are very very real. Affirmative action is a program meant to directly target the very real social costs of racism. It does not exist to balance the issues caused some mythical effect that is attributable to the concept of race but to mitigate effects of that false belief. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/11 "2016-07-21T15:13:06Z")
So…someone said something about eating cake? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/12 "2016-07-21T15:29:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So…someone said something about eating cake? My younger daughter went to a friend’s wedding last weekend. They are a mixed-race couple and therefore they choose to have marble cake. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/13 "2016-07-21T15:58:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Witchcraft is not real, but the claim that someone is a witch has cost people their lives. > > [Salem witch trials - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials) > > Race is similar, the claim of causality is false but the unfortunate effects of the false concept are very very real. > > Affirmative action is a program meant to directly target the very real social costs of racism. It does not exist to balance the issues caused some mythical effect that is attributable to the concept of race but to mitigate effects of that false belief. This. Even though race is not a real thing we can certainly identify the victims of racism. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/14 "2016-07-21T16:03:14Z")
Then let them eat bread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/15 "2016-07-21T16:03:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This. Even though race is not a real thing we can certainly identify the victims of racism. Social Constructs are “real things”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/16 "2016-07-21T16:28:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Social Constructs are “real things”. Depends on your definition of ‘real’ and ‘thing’. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/17 "2016-07-21T16:32:15Z")
I guess, but race is at least as much a “real thing” as religion or nationality is. Just because some aspect of human society is abstract and non-biological doesn’t mean it’s not a “real thing”, at least for widespread standard usage of the terms “real” and “thing”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/18 "2016-07-21T16:37:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I guess, but race is at least as much a “real thing” as religion or nationality is. > > Just because some aspect of human society is abstract and non-biological doesn’t mean it’s not a “real thing”, at least for widespread standard usage of the terms “real” and “thing”. Fine, it’s not a meaningful biological term. As a social construct it is a matter of arbitrary and inconsistent perception. The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are social constructs also, I don’t consider those any more real than race. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/19 "2016-07-21T17:03:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are social constructs also, I don’t consider those any more real than race. :dubious: I certainly agree with you that the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are not _more_ real than race. Note, by the way, that the Easter Bunny and its customary festival move [around $17 billion of consumer spending](https://wallethub.com/blog/easter-stats/19776/) annually in the US alone. That’s a pretty big economic impact, imaginary being or not. Likewise, racial distinctions have massive social impacts, even if you don’t choose to define them as a “real thing”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/20 "2016-07-21T17:13:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In recent years, there’s been a trend among some to claim that “Race doesn’t exist” or “Race is a social construct”. Let’s get to the core of the issue: do you think people in this country with darker skin are treated the same as white people? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466.md?page=2)