# "Race doesn't exist" and affirmative action: Can't have cake and eat it too **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466 "2016-07-21T03:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/21 "2016-07-21T17:15:51Z")
A self-identification of “black” in America correlates with about an 80% chance of descent from sub-Saharan Africa. Thus they are likely to share a evolutionary history. Obviously race isn’t a perfect construct, but it can be useful when applied to groups, as with statistics in general. It’s like talking about sickle cell anemia - it isn’t confined solely to blacks, not all blacks have it, but it doesn’t occur randomly in the population. [About 60-80% of those with sickle cell disease are black.](http://www.nytimes.com/ref/health/healthguide/esn-sickle-cell-know.html) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/22 "2016-07-21T17:19:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A self-identification of “black” in America correlates with about an 80% chance of descent from sub-Saharan Africa Can we see where you got that number? On second thought, never mind. No need to rehash this stuff for the nth time. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/23 "2016-07-21T17:21:15Z")
nm, John Mace is right. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/24 "2016-07-21T18:02:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A self-identification of “black” in America correlates with about an 80% chance of descent from sub-Saharan Africa. > > Regards, > Shodan I was under the impression that self-identification of “black” in America correlates with exactly a 100% chance of descent from sub-Saharan Africa. Just like all the other self-identities. Regards, TriPolar ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/25 "2016-07-21T18:40:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s get to the core of the issue: do you think people in this country with darker skin are treated the same as white people? You mean the [CORE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Racial_Equality) of the issue? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/26 "2016-07-21T19:11:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It helps if you understand the claim that’s actually being made, which is that race _as a genetic construct_ does not exist. Race _as a social construct_ does, and it is the inequities in that social construct that AA was designed to counteract. > > Also, this isn’t a remotely new idea. [Here’s an article from 1998](http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php) describing why race isn’t a scientifically valid concept, and also explaining the difference between race as a scientific concept, and race as a social concept. Pretty much this. Race doesn’t exist wrt genetics. Humans are pretty obviously all one ‘race’ wrt the ability to interbreed and produce viable offspring. Race as a social construct is equally obvious…after all, we talk about it all the time, you can see it’s effects and impacts on society, etc etc. As others have said, I’m unsure why the OP initially brings this point up then drops it when there really isn’t a debate here, and no gotcha either. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/27 "2016-07-21T19:29:27Z")
I think the argument gets muddled with the phrase “race doesn’t exist;” they mean to say that “non-visual difference between races don’t exist.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/28 "2016-07-21T20:00:59Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I think the argument gets muddled with the phrase “race doesn’t exist;” they mean to say that “non-visual difference between races don’t exist.” No, there is no biological concept of race. It simply doesn’t exist. There are human populations and they have genetic differences on average, but the concept of a biological race is meaningless. Visual vs non-visual doesn’t enter into it. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/29 "2016-07-21T20:16:25Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No, there is no biological concept of race. It simply doesn’t exist. There are human populations and they have genetic differences on average, but the concept of a biological race is meaningless. Visual vs non-visual doesn’t enter into it. I understand what you’re saying, but that argument does kind of feed what the OP is saying; ordinary people who don’t know about genetics do wonder “if race doesn’t exist, why affirmative action?” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/30 "2016-07-21T20:17:37Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > “if race doesn’t exist, why affirmative action?” Because racism does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/31 "2016-07-21T20:21:00Z")
No one has contributed more to Western Civilization than the White strain. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/32 "2016-07-21T20:27:49Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > […] but that argument does kind of feed what the OP is saying; ordinary people who don’t know about genetics do wonder “if race doesn’t exist, why affirmative action?” Well sure, if the OP’s complaint were simply that the rhetoric about race is potentially confusing to people who don’t understand the issues, that would be one thing. But the initial post clearly suggests that the OP themself doesn’t understand what the rhetoric means. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/33 "2016-07-22T07:51:09Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I think the argument gets muddled with the phrase “race doesn’t exist;” they mean to say that “non-visual difference between races don’t exist.” No, [that’s not it](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/93/87/d7/9387d782c97668faf5bcabc8f02fde7c.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/34 "2016-07-22T15:03:46Z")
How can one then categorically define race when it comes to affirmative action? If we’re all such a mixture of genes how can we truthfully aver what race we are? Or does it still go by the old ‘one drop’ rule? If race is a social construct (as I agree it is) should we not speedily deconstruct it, with the same care one would take disassembling a ticking time bomb? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/35 "2016-07-22T15:10:13Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How can one then categorically define race when it comes to affirmative action? If we’re all such a mixture of genes how can we truthfully aver what race we are? Or does it still go by the old ‘one drop’ rule? > > If race is a social construct (as I agree it is) should we not speedily deconstruct it, with the same care one would take disassembling a ticking time bomb? For your first question, self reporting seems to work 99% of the time. For your second, we’ve been working on it for decades. The first step is dismantling the remnants of white supremacy, which are weakened but still present to varying degrees in driven aspects of our society. This dismantling, including programs like AA, is taking a long time because so many fight against it. When white supremacy is no longer a significant factor in policy and practice of our society, we might be able to move towards a truly colorblind society. But doing it backwards just makes it worse, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/36 "2016-07-22T15:38:01Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How can one then categorically define race when it comes to affirmative action? Why does it have to be done categorically? Why not on an individual basis? > [@](#): > > If we’re all such a mixture of genes how can we truthfully aver what race we are? Because genes have nothing to do with the socio-cultural aspect of race, which is what determines who suffers from racism. Go by that. > [@](#): > > If race is a social construct (as I agree it is) should we not speedily deconstruct it, with the same care one would take disassembling a ticking time bomb? That’s one of the things affirmative action is supposed to help do (by working to erase the economic inequality aspect of the construction) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/37 "2016-07-22T16:16:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How can one then categorically define race when it comes to affirmative action? If we’re all such a mixture of genes how can we truthfully aver what race we are? Or does it still go by the old ‘one drop’ rule? Racists use a variety of clues to discern who “wouldn’t be a good fit”. Never do they use genetics or blood quanta. So I’m guessing this is why affirmative action doesn’t either. > [@](#): > > If race is a social construct (as I agree it is) should we not speedily deconstruct it, with the same care one would take disassembling a ticking time bomb? We are having a hard enough time dismantling gender, dude. Once we tackle that, then we can get started on color-blinding everyone. To get started, we can force people to diversity their social circles and mandate that they practice random mate selection. Perhaps in three or four generations, we’ll all be the same shade of light brown and it won’t be too difficult for us to let go of our archaic divisions. Good luck with that, though. We’d probably do better just encouraging everyone to live and work alongside each other, so that it is harder for bigotries and prejudices to set up in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/38 "2016-07-22T16:27:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I was under the impression that self-identification of “black” in America correlates with exactly a 100% chance of descent from sub-Saharan Africa. Just like all the other self-identities. > > Regards, > TriPolar Truly excellent post. Definitely the best post I’ve read in a long time. It saddens me how few people know this. It shocks me that I have met a number of people who managed to get a college education without learning this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/39 "2016-07-22T16:37:09Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Truly excellent post. Definitely the best post I’ve read in a long time. > > It saddens me how few people know this. It shocks me that I have met a number of people who managed to get a college education without learning this. Can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/40 "2016-07-22T17:26:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Perhaps in three or four generations, we’ll all be the same shade of light brown and it won’t be too difficult for us to let go of our archaic divisions. Then we can hate each other over whether we are short or tall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466.md?page=3)